Metal on the rim brake pads?

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T4tomo

Legendary Member
IME this is quite common. Either dig out the bits or replace the pads. The latter is easier and cheap enough. I've never really been sure if they really are metal bits, or just appear that way and are actually just grit.

this^^^ and even if they are bits of metal, they almost certain aren't bits of your wheel rim. But you do want them out of the pad or the pad changed as they will eventually wear your rims. Kool stops salmon or dual are great as are swiss stop (but often more expensive).
 

boydj

Legendary Member
Location
Paisley
It should be part of your regular maintenance routine with rim brakes to check your brake blocks for bits of grit and metal which will inevitably get stuck in there and grind on the rims, especially if you're riding in wet conditions. It's worth doing the same with your tyres - little bits of grit can get stuck in there and eventually work through to cause a puncture.
 

Mr Celine

Discordian
A post from Yellow Saddle, formerly of this parish, explaining the mechanism by which aluminium from your rims becomes embedded in brake blocks.
Your assumption is that rubber can only wear aluminium when it has some sort of abrasive embedded in it. However, in the dry, on tarmac roads, there is no grit to embed and rubber still abrades the aluminium. Obviously in the wet, the additional silica particles in the road water helps to speed up the process but in its absence it still wears away the aluminium.

Friction interfaces such as brakes are poorly understood. Typically, there is a soft and a hard compound sliding against each other. In this case, it is rubber and aluminium. When braking, the rubber heats up due to stretching of the molecules and the breaking of the covalent bonds between the molecules. This heat cannot go anywhere since rubber is a poor conductor of heat and is thus transferred to the aluminium, an excellent conductor. Eventually the rim does feel warm because of the even distribution of the heat with time. But at the time of braking there is lots of heat at the interface, enough to remove aluminium molecules and immediately oxidise them, hence the black sludge, even in the rain.

When the rubber's chemistry changes in tiny spots, that's where the larger pick-up problem arises. If you examine a rim that's been gouged by a stone, as Gobalti describes, you will see that the edges are jagged, as you would expect from a cold scrape. If you inspect the ridges caused by alu pick-up, you will see that temperature was involved and the metal has a smoother appearance at the edges of the groove. Alu starts to become soft at about 450C (IIRC, that's about the temperature at which it is pushed through dies for extrusion profiles) and easily reaches that temperature at the pad/rubber interface. All it needs at that temperature is a piece of crystalised rubber and it rolls up as we see in brake pads.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
The answer is always Kool-Stop salmon pads.

The OP's pads are too soft, allowing grit and rim chips to become embedded. Paradoxically, hard pads are kinder to rims if used in all weathers, since they don't embed abrasive material.

Clarks pads are too soft, or were the last time I tried them. They turned into grinding devices.
 
OP
OP
livpoksoc

livpoksoc

Guru
Location
Basingstoke
The answer is always Kool-Stop salmon pads.

The OP's pads are too soft, allowing grit and rim chips to become embedded. Paradoxically, hard pads are kinder to rims if used in all weathers, since they don't embed abrasive material.

Clarks pads are too soft, or were the last time I tried them. They turned into grinding devices.

Thanks. Are these Salmon pads compatible with my Shimano calipers?
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Location
Loch side.
If my rims reach 450 degrees, I'll eat my underpants.

(actually, I won't 'cos I'll have plunged into a ravine when my tyre exploded)

I've been asked to autoresurrect, dive in and explain.

I appreciate a good sceptic, after all, I'm one too.

How does a rim reach 450 degrees C or more to melt off bits of aluminium that then melts into and settles into a rubber brake pad?

Firstly, aluminium fully melts at a much higher temperature than 450C but I used this figure because at that temperature it is pretty malleable (Like putty) and can easily, under pressure ooze. Therefore, under braking conditions, a bit of alu at 450 degrees can ostensibly start to flow and transfer.

Now, as for the rim reaching 450. It clearly doesn't....only bits (and very tiny bits the size of a needle tip) of it heat to that temperature . Imagine a needle and a lit candle. You can hold the needle by the eye, dip the tip into the flame and it glows red. This is approximately 450 degrees too, since steel glows red at that temperature. However, you can still hold the needle for a while before the heat reaches your fingers. If you remove the needle from the flame and wait a bit, the temperature will even out and entire needle will peak at about 30 degrees before settling back to ambient. The peak temperature depends on two things: the ratio of the thermal mass of the hot and cold bits and, the peak temperature of the tip in the candle.

I'll explain: If you were to do the experiment with a thumb tac two different ways, you could heat the tip of the pin to red hot, remove the pin from the flame and wait. The settlement temperature of the entire tac would them reach say, 30 degrees. Alternatively, you could hold the tac by the pin and heat the dome to red hot and then let it settle. The end peak temperature of the tac would then probably be something like 60 degrees. This is because more heat can be stored in more mass. Conversely it takes more heat to raise the temperature of a large piece of steel than a small piece of steel.

To labour the point from a different angle. If you were to heat a disc of copper plate over a candle but holding it dead centre above the candle, the heat gradient can be imagined like a dart board. The bull's eye will be hottest and the temperature will drop as you go towards the edges. At the doubles ring it will be the coolest and remain so until the candle burns out. Heat needs time to travel and some of it gets lost to radiation, especially towards the larger surface area around the edges of the disk. All I'm trying to illustrate here is that hot-spots are perfectly normal.

Back to our hot rim: The heat is generated at the interface. This interface isn't a smooth flat surface as you imagine but a surface resembling two pieces of rough sandpaper moving against each other. You can imagine that only the tips touch. At these tiny touch points the flash temperatures are high. But the tips are small and cannot transmit much heat back into the bulk of the rim, hence it rises only a few degrees. These contact points are tiny - microscopically small.

I could speculate that the nucleation point for a hot-spot is a bit of grit. The explanation would be that hat gets the hot-spot going which then builds up with aluminium. However, after analysing dozens, perhaps hundreds of pads with embedded metal, I'm yet to come across such a piece of grit - always pure metal. What I have discovered is that the metal is never shaved off but always oozed off under temperature and pressure (round edges rather than sharp shavings). This indicates that even rubber can create enough heat that could melt metal asperities at the molecular level.

Lo0ng story short, therefore it is not abnormal to find localised melting/softening in a large object that is relatively cool.

There's no need to eat your underwear because you are right. Your rim does not reach 450C

I'm pretty sure back in the past I've posted pictures here of my experiments with Koolstop pads. I used to ride with one Koolstop and one Shimano/Campag pad in the same calliper and after some months remove them and compare. It was remarkable how much pick-up there was in Campag and Shimano compared to Koolstop (Salmon compound).

Advice to the OP: Get Koolstop salmon as Ajax said. Ignore the sideshow about warping. The metal is from your rim - you can even pinpoint the exact spot if you take a magnifier to the job.

I'm not going to ask how you're supposed to get a micrometer on the rim sidewall either.
 
I'm pretty sure back in the past I've posted pictures here of my experiments with Koolstop pads. I used to ride with one Koolstop and one Shimano/Campag pad in the same calliper and after some months remove them and compare. It was remarkable how much pick-up there was in Campag and Shimano compared to Koolstop (Salmon compound).

Have you figured out WHY shimano and campag are so inferior?

(Just out of interest! I'm completely happy buying koolstop/swisstop until rim-brakes are made illegal on all Federation Planets.)
 

presta

Guru
If my rims reach 450 degrees, I'll eat my underpants.

(actually, I won't 'cos I'll have plunged into a ravine when my tyre exploded)

Soft materials wear harder ones without any need for heat.

I scratched the screen of my mobile phone once, and managed to polish it out again just by rubbing it with my thumb for hours whilst I was sat watching TV.

My fingers have polished a mirror shine onto the matt surface of the touchpad on this laptop. (It's actually a PITA because the original matt finish stopped sweaty fingers clinging to it in hot weather.)

Tarmac and concrete get worn out by tyres, rock gets polished by walking boots....
 
Location
Loch side.
Have you figured out WHY shimano and campag are so inferior?

(Just out of interest! I'm completely happy buying koolstop/swisstop until rim-brakes are made illegal on all Federation Planets.)

No I have not, to my utter frustration. Friction was my thing professionally but this phenomena stumps me. I even doubt the Koolstop people know the reason. I'm say this because I approached them a few year ago for a book I was then writing and they were all very keen to be interviewed until I told them what specifically I wanted to know. Then the keenness frizzled out and they went silent on me. Koosltop inadvertently stumbled on a magic ingredient (some say it is Iron oxide from the colour of the rubber) and somehow kept it secret for many years. In order to prevent hot-spots, you need better heat transfer in the pad itself and Iron Oxide (rust) is a very, very poor conductor, so the logic doesn't lie there.
I understand that Shimano has now managed to solve the alu pick-up problem in its latest pads. I have not tried those.

I am no longer in the trade and have migrated to disc brakes myself, so I don't think I'll ever solve this mystery.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
The salmon pads are sold for wet use. Whatever makes them orange is also what gives them higher friction in the wet. They also have a bit of a reputation for squeal if the brake hardware is insufficiently rigid or there is not enough toe-in.
 
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