Potential Hack of Sky Rider Data

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Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
I don't understand the problem that people have with deriving results from performance analysis, provided that proper attention is given to propagation of uncertainty.

Any physical measured value has an associated uncertainty. This in turn governs the number of significant figures that it is justifiable to use in a result. Normally you would determine the uncertainty by taking multiple readings and calculating the standard deviation. But it can be justifiable to make an educated guess.

Now, when you combine measured values mathematically these uncertainties propagate in a known mathematical way (a way that I used to understand when I was a young intelligent man, rather than the old dullard I am now). So for a result derived from a given set of inputs with known uncertainties, you have an associated derived uncertainty.

So, lets say I want to derive the W/kg for a rider based upon a video of a climb. I determine the rider's weight (and associated uncertainty) lets say thats 65 ± 2kg. I look up the meteorological conditions for the day - ambient pressure, wind etc, and associate an uncertainty with that. Maybe I find out some coefficient to do with the rolling resistance on that particular road. I end up with a basket of numbers, each with an uncertainty. I use these come up with a result in W/kg with an associated uncertainty, which also tells me how many significant figures I can justifiably quote.

Now lets say my answer is 7.9251 W/kg At first glance this looks pretty damning. It looks like he must be cheating somehow. But if the associated uncertainty is ± 2 W/kg, then it's not damning at all, it's just 8 ± 2, which could be anything from 6 to 10. 6 W/kg is not abnormal, so this investigation proves nothing.

If proper attention is paid to propagation of uncertainty, the objection that "oh, they don't know the wind conditions, the effect of the oval chainwheels, blah blah ... pseudoscience..." disappears. However, you will probably find that the "smoking gun" also disappears, because we can clearly see the limits of such calculation.
 

biking_fox

Guru
Location
Manchester
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vayer-says-froomes-supposed-ventoux-data-was-leaked-not-hacked

It's a leak not a hack. Apparently. Not sure how or why that makes any difference.
 

HF2300

Insanity Prawn Boy
If proper attention is paid to propagation of uncertainty, the objection that "oh, they don't know the wind conditions, the effect of the oval chainwheels, blah blah ... pseudoscience..." disappears. However, you will probably find that the "smoking gun" also disappears, because we can clearly see the limits of such calculation.

And there's the key - because many of the frothers don't pay proper attention to such things and don't take that rational view, and many others are capable of ignoring scientific method when it suits their argument.
 

w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
And there's the key - because many of the frothers don't pay proper attention to such things and don't take that rational view, and many others are capable of ignoring scientific method when it suits their argument.
Yup, the bottom line is what you write and it's what other people will quote without an understanding of why it got written. If you choose to go for the worst case options in each stage of the calculation and then don't quote error at the end only those who know to look for it will look for it. Others, especially if they want it to prove what they want to prove will take it at face value and quote it all over the place. Stomping on that becomes difficult and pointing out possible errors afterwards gets painted as weasely.

I'm with Boardman here, power meters aren't all identical, you take the one you have and work with it each time rather than comparing it with another one and you get the data it gives you and use variations from it. And it'll be a decade of nobody being caught (possibly nobody big, possibly just nobody) before anyone starts thinking talk of the sport not being clean isn't delusional.

Also, there's nothing saying what the files that were leaked were. They might have been a complete data output for Froome with all the adjustment work done, or they might have been the raw data files for power with little more than a time and date on them.
 

ColinJ

Puzzle game procrastinator!
I'm with Boardman here, power meters aren't all identical, you take the one you have and work with it each time rather than comparing it with another one and you get the data it gives you and use variations from it.
True, but good meters such as what Froome would be using are probably accurate to within (say) 2%.

If the numbers were only 1.5% over the 'suspicious' threshold then it wouldn't be wise to make judgements based on them. If they were (say) 10+% over the threshold then the numbers would be telling us something.
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Dear me, one decent performance = doping in the eyes of the paranoid. I'm amazed that no clean team or rider has sued for defamation. I would. That might shut up some of the self appointed "scientific analysers" who populate the forums. Shame they don't get out a bit more. But then actually doing something that involves effort and dedication as opposed to pontificating is probably too much of a strain. Brassed off? You bet, on behalf, maybe, of all the people I've suffered with who tried to do things the right way - clean. All the finger pointers have to do is PROVE their accusations, or button it.
I'm so hacked off I need to get out for a bit of a brisk potter!
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Wasn't that what Lance did? Not sure it'd have the same effect nowadays.
yes he did. But the majority of riders just stoically take this rubbish as part of the job. Just like fans throwing urine, whacking riders, screaming abuse. Why? because their own favourites can't work out a way to beat them? For me it's often what's written by certain reporters, all careful innuendo that is JUST this side of defaming someone, but enough to stir up the stupid, that is the problem. Plus of course the usual shed loads of booze consumed by some people at the roadside.
I fear for rider safety on the Alpe next Saturday. There needs to be much heavier security before a rider gets badly hurt - I just hope ASO have paid for massive increases of gendarmerie/security people, because on the penultimate day, having survived a Tour, every single rider deserves it, and does not deserve to be screamed at, abused, or even assaulted by dick heads.
 
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