That worthless and dangerous cycling infrastructure

[Dan B]

Seriously, what problem do you have with cycle lanes + traffic speed reduction (confinement to 30mph; aiming for lower)?

Well, apart from the obvious ones that per the usual UK standards of implementation the lane will be too narrow and will encourage car drivers to pass without pulling out to give sufficient room, and then on the approach to any kind of junction it will (a) veer off in some completely stupid direction (e.g. round the outside of a roundabout or onto the pavement) and/or (b) disappear completely, and it will probably be full of parked vehicles.

Good quality cycle lanes would look a lot like bus lanes. I would have no objection to those, if anyone would like to build some. I like bus lanes.

(This post relates to urban cycling and does not address rural issues)

 

[Richard Mann]

The objection is in the form of a question. Can you deliver a complete separate network which covers the whole country and every journey in its entirety, without me needing to stop at junctions to let turning cars go past etc? If you cannot then everything that you do do will only reduce my legitimacy on the road in the eyes both of the greater public and the law.

Is that clear enough?

Who's talking about a "complete separate network"? I'm talking about painted cycle lanes on (speed-controlled) roads. What's your objection to those?

 

[Richard Mann]

Well, apart from the obvious ones that per the usual UK standards of implementation the lane will be too narrow and will encourage car drivers to pass without pulling out to give sufficient room, and then on the approach to any kind of junction it will (a) veer off in some completely stupid direction (e.g. round the outside of a roundabout or onto the pavement) and/or (b) disappear completely, and it will probably be full of parked vehicles.

Good quality cycle lanes would look a lot like bus lanes. I would have no objection to those, if anyone would like to build some. I like bus lanes.

(This post relates to urban cycling and does not address rural issues)

If you reduce traffic speeds, most of those problems can be dealt with satisfactorily.

 

[Richard Mann]

As above, if it is not complete the bits where it is have a negative impact on the bits where it isn't. I am of the opinion that the negative outweighs the positive.

Evidence? It's as least as likely that bullying motorists into submission in one place has a positive impact elsewhere.

What isn't a good idea is providing pavement cycle tracks and doing nothing on the road: that does make things worse.

 

[Red Light]

We've had this debate over a few decades in Oxford, and the consensus is a dual network. If I was advocating cycle tracks alongside main roads, cost would be a relevant factor, but cycle lanes are pretty cheap, so cost is pretty much irrelevant.

Is [url="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=oxford&hl=en&ll=51.731863,-1.24988&spn=0.000922,0.003862&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.30596,46.538086&vpsrc=6&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.731966,-1.248896&panoid=wFtuJ9OtuGX6MMzmLNaorA&cbp=12,347.07,,0,-0.01"]this[/url] one you're proud of?

Seriously, what problem do you have with cycle lanes + traffic speed reduction (confinement to 30mph; aiming for lower)?

You mean enforced gutter riding rather than the recommended secondary or primary positions. Cars pass much closer, they're more dangerous at junctions and no safer in between, they're where the drain covers and all the crap off the roads accumulates, they are built in the wrong places and there is no evidence they encourage cycling. Yes they are cheaper - £20-40k/km - but there's not much evidence that you get anything for your money other than some white paint.

But it seems the pinnacle of your aspiration is 30mph roads (already have those in most urban areas) with a narrow cycle lane painted on it. So the current national crap practice dressed up with the fancy name "Dual Cycle Network"

That last link is fascinating by the way - a post rationalisation of narrow cycle lanes and its all the fault of the cyclist at side roads "apparently because the cyclist was taking less care". And door zone lanes where there "isn’t enough room for a car door to open, but it appears to be enough room for the cyclist to dodge round if a door opens in front of them."

If that is your idea of cycling utopia you can keep it.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Seriously, what problem do you have with cycle lanes + traffic speed reduction (confinement to 30mph; aiming for lower)?

Answers:

http://www.cyclechat...ost__p__1798593

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=036yhZJ_ZbA

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYipfgAlFKM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=jbDwoZ5EcBc
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=zB0qyswujpo
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=byzVugPajoY
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tLf-loGA-WM
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_oKC9PBjnuM
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=g3N6mJsLUDE
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FYVYUPni9RE
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lGMdWMIO6lc
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=zFoXCjK9C-8
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FI875Q0tfhY
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Vwgb83XLieo

All of these were on 30mph roads that will never in a million years be changed to lower speed limits.

 

[Richard Mann]

Deliver the reduced traffic speeds and let's re-evaluate the need for anything else when that is done.

That's not an argument

 

[Red Light]

If you reduce traffic speeds, most of those problems can be dealt with satisfactorily.

If you reduce traffic speeds you don't need any facilities. The Dutch mix traffic on roads with speed limits of 20mph. There is quite a lot of movement to have 20mph limits. Cambridge has gone 20mph in several parts of the city centre now. London is looking seriously at it across London and Portsmouth has gone 20mph in large areas

 

[Richard Mann]

Is this one you're proud of?

You mean enforced gutter riding rather than the recommended secondary or primary positions. Cars pass much closer, they're more dangerous at junctions and no safer in between, they're where the drain covers and all the crap off the roads accumulates, they are built in the wrong places and there is no evidence they encourage cycling. Yes they are cheaper - £20-40k/km - but there's not much evidence that you get anything for your money other than some white paint.

But it seems the pinnacle of your aspiration is 30mph roads (already have those in most urban areas) with a narrow cycle lane painted on it. So the current national crap practice dressed up with the fancy name "Dual Cycle Network"

That last link is fascinating by the way - a post rationalisation of narrow cycle lanes and its all the fault of the cyclist at side roads "apparently because the cyclist was taking less care". And door zone lanes where there "isn’t enough room for a car door to open, but it appears to be enough room for the cyclist to dodge round if a door opens in front of them."

If that is your idea of cycling utopia you can keep it.

Try turning the Google Streetview round. The cycle lane only goes as far as the ASL for people turning right into Old Abingdon Road (then it disappears). Meanwhile, straight-ahead moves have switched to the not-bad-really cycle track in the verge. It's the edge of the city.

There's a difference between what I would aspire to, and what I think is politically, financially and spatially achievable. I think low speeds (nearer 20mph than 30mph) in towns and clear passage for cyclists is achievable, and reasonably popular among users. Since it's reasonably popular among users, and reasonably safe, I'll go on advocating it, unless you come up with a decent reason not to.

 

[Richard Mann]

If you reduce traffic speeds you don't need any facilities. The Dutch mix traffic on roads with speed limits of 20mph. There is quite a lot of movement to have 20mph limits. Cambridge has gone 20mph in several parts of the city centre now. London is looking seriously at it across London and Portsmouth has gone 20mph in large areas

You might also have mentioned that Oxford is almost entirely 20mph, even shopping areas on main roads. You do still need facilities if traffic volumes are high.

 

[Red Light]

All of these were on 30mph roads that will never in a million years be changed to lower speed limits.

You misunderstand - those are exactly what Richard wants. Narrow cycle lanes on 30mph roads. He said it here and its on the Cyclox website. In cycle lane addicts any cycle lane, no matter how crap, is better than no cycle lane. Even if you do have to dodge round car doors and pay attention at side roads when using them.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

There's a difference between what I would aspire to, and what I think is politically, financially and spatially achievable.

And "any crap facility is better than nothing". I don't think so.

 

[MartinC]

Who's talking about a "complete separate network"? I'm talking about painted cycle lanes on (speed-controlled) roads. What's your objection to those?

We already have cycle lanes and tracks. If you're not talking about a complete separate network then you've already got what you want - so what's bothering you?

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

You misunderstand - those are exactly what Richard wants. Narrow cycle lanes on 30mph roads. He said it here and its on the Cyclox website. In cycle lane addicts any cycle lane, no matter how crap, is better than no cycle lane. Even if you do have to dodge round car doors and pay attention at side roads when using them.

I understand very well and was illustrating, with real life examples, what the consequences are of having narrow cycle lanes on 30mph roads.

 

[Red Light]

Try turning the Google Streetview round. The cycle lane only goes as far as the ASL for people turning right into Old Abingdon Road (then it disappears). Meanwhile, straight-ahead moves have switched to the not-bad-really cycle track in the verge. It's the edge of the city.

That width of cycle lane goes most of the way into the city on Abingdon Rd. Here it is much further in, complete with drain cover taking up half its width.

There's a difference between what I would aspire to, and what I think is politically, financially and spatially achievable.

So I was right, any cycle lane is better than no cycle lane.