Vienna to the Black Sea

[dimrub]

Ok, we're almost ready - meaning, I'm still waiting for my wife to provide us with the dates when she can make do without the two of us. Under the assumption that this is around the September holidays, I've chosen the most convenient days for flying there and back again. The flight there (to Vienna) is direct, as I don't want to risk our bikes getting lost during a connection, the flight back (from Belgrade) has a connection, since it's cheaper than the direct one.

I've reduced the daily mileage all the way down to an average of ~66km, based on the lessons of the previous trip. Ditto, I only reserved hotels (free cancellation) for the first two nights (Vienna and Bratislava), and given that this is low season, we plan to play it by ear, but mostly preferring camping over hotelling. I'm actively resisting the urge to plan further than that. If we proceed faster than the average suggests, we might take a day off in either Budapest or Belgrade. I found on FB a recommendation of a bike shop in Belgrade that will pack our bikes and call a mini-van for the airport - all for $17 per bike, marvellous news. That, and a visit to Decathlon in Vienna before we start pedalling, and not to forget to pack the bikeline books - and I think we're all set for another wonderful adventure.

I don't know whether ALDI or LIDL extend beyond the border of Austria, but whatever the discount chain of supermarkets there is, I'm sure Daniel will find it and drag me to it, so I think the main macro-nutrients we will be consuming are going to be pasta and raspberries.

 

[Alex321]

I don't know whether ALDI or LIDL extend beyond the border of Austria, but whatever the discount chain of supermarkets there is, I'm sure Daniel will find it and drag me to it, so I think the main macro-nutrients we will be consuming are going to be pasta and raspberries.

Both Aldi and Lidl extend well beyond the borders of Austria. Lidl are the 2nd biggest supermarket chain in both Czech Republic and Hungary, and the biggest in Romania.

 

[dimrub]

Both Aldi and Lidl extend well beyond the borders of Austria. Lidl are the 2nd biggest supermarket chain in both Czech Republic and Hungary, and the biggest in Romania.

Thanks, Daniel will be happy to hear that. Me - less so (I'm spoiled).

 

[dimrub]

As everything is ready for late September (Vienna to Belgrade), I couldn't help it but wonder about the next stage - Belgrade to the sea. It's the longest stage so far - 1400 km, and it is claimed to have 10,000m of elevation gain. We're currently thinking of attempting it next late April, and we won't have too much time to do it - perhaps 2 weeks, if that. This means over 100km average daily distance, with some days as many as 140km. The elevation gain is the real unknown here, since I don't trust the one Komoot reports - it seems vastly overestimated (and for those wondering, cycle.travel is not doing any better). I mean, I can see the isolines on the map pointing to a 50m hill, and Komoot suggests a 150m climb (*). Given that, the route seems reasonable.

The route splits and coalesces a couple of times. I currently made a choice with the goal of minimizing Romania time, choosing the Southern bank - first the Serbian, then the Bulgarian, over the Northern one. There are a few parts of the route where accommodations appear to be really far in between. We'll be taking our tent, of course, but it seems the approach here is not one of looking for established camping grounds, but rather of looking for likely spots and maybe asking permission to use it. Some of the spots reported by Komoot are reported as closed on Google Maps, clearly careful planning is called for, given the paucity of options. The water and food situation is not clear at this point, I'll be reading up on that.

I'd be happy to make a day of rest at Ruse and make a short trip to Moldova and Ukraine from Galati, but it's not clear whether we'll have the time for that. Also, the way of getting from Constanta to the airport (presumably, in Bucharest) is not clear. It appears the trains should be available, and some of those allow bicycles, but I haven't seen too much info on that. Worst case, we'll just rent a car in Constanta and drives ourselves - and the bikes.

It will be a good test of the new bike, that's for sure.

* - As I may have written before, I think I know why Komoot is doing such a poor job calculating altitute changes. It does so while overaging altitute over a cell of the area, of say 50x50 meters. And if the route passes in a canyon surrounded by high walls, as is the case with this route, the changes in altitudes on top of the canyon is reflected in the eventual calculation, although it shouldn't be.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

It's the longest stage so far - 1400 km, and it is claimed to have 10,000m of elevation gain.

These days, I generally follow a 10% rule of thumb. On a 1400km ride anything under 14000m of climbing is fine, anything above merits a bit more investigation. Of course, if those 14000m come over 140km that changes things slightly

Bear in mind that the climbing accuracy of any planner will suffer over a long route. Breaking it down to shorter sections can improve accuracy. CycleTravel has the option of adding overnight stops so you end up with one long route as well as daily ones. On top of that, it's possible to see, at a glance, the daily distance and elevation on the long route. It's very useful!

We're currently thinking of attempting it next late April, and we won't have too much time to do it - perhaps 2 weeks, if that. This means over 100km average daily distance, with some days as many as 140km.

If I'm recalling correctly you deliberately planned this September leg to have shorter days after last year and it seems you're increasing it again?

If you're camping on this leg remember that that slows everything down. Cooking too?
If stealth camping, my preferred method is to find a spot, spend some time checking it out, maybe eat (somewhere else) and only pitch up in the dark. It's not pleasant scanning for a place to pitch up in a strange place as night is falling.
For a more relaxed approach, even finding out who is the right person to ask permission can be time consuming.

I get that this will be the last leg and there's probably an urge to finish it but....... speaking for myself, I'd rather do it comfortably than fast. Is there the possibility of breaking it into two legs or choosing another time so you'll have longer? That's an amazingly interesting part of the world and it has always struck me as the kind of place where the urgency of modern life hasn't intruded.

I don't trust the one Komoot reports

"Reports" is superfluous

I can see the isolines on the map pointing to a 50m hill, and Komoot suggests a 150m climb

That 50m hill could be 10 up, 5 down, 10 up, 5 down and so on. It's entirely possible to climb 150m on a 50m hill*. I'd suggest using the map feature on CGOAB to zoom in on particular areas for some real data. If you sign up you can download gpx files, if supplied. Some journalists have their rides up on RWGPS and the like.

*It's a long time ago now, but I recall someone asking on CGOAB on a (almost) trans continental ride whether he should go E-W or W-E based on the fact that start and finish were something like 400ft different in elevation. The chap thought he had 400ft of climbing to do!

If doing long days, day after day, then gradient can become more important as well as the placement of the climbing. Climbing at the end of a long day? That's tough.

Some of the spots reported by Komoot are reported as closed on Google Maps,

CT, iOverlander and Osmand may be able to help.

There have been significant changes post-Covid where some businesses just didn't survive or have changed ownership- On iOverlander we can see the last time someone "checked in".

As everything is ready for late September (Vienna to Belgrade), I couldn't help it but wonder about the next stage - Belgrade to the sea

I have never been ready the day I start, never mind a couple of weeks in advance.
I'd feel I was cheating on Vienna (❤️) and Belgrade and my poor head doesn't have the bandwidth to hold two distinct adventures simultaneously.

Good luck!

 

[dimrub]

These days, I generally follow a 10% rule of thumb. On a 1400km ride anything under 14000m of climbing is fine, anything above merits a bit more investigation. Of course, if those 14000m come over 140km that changes things slightly

Yeah, exactly. It's not just the total number - it's their distribution. I have my bikeline books, and they seem to mention it when a particular stage has a substantial climb - I think that at this point I trust them better than either electronic source of GIS info.

Bear in mind that the climbing accuracy of any planner will suffer over a long route. Breaking it down to shorter sections can improve accuracy. CycleTravel has the option of adding overnight stops so you end up with one long route as well as daily ones. On top of that, it's possible to see, at a glance, the daily distance and elevation on the long route. It's very useful!

I'm not sure how would that work - I mean, they're probably just summing up the climbs of the constituent stages, no? But I'll give it a try, thanks!

If I'm recalling correctly you deliberately planned this September leg to have shorter days after last year and it seems you're increasing it again?

Correct! I even wanted to make this September leg a 14-days rather than 10 we settled on. But then, there are several things at play for this last stage. I'm trying to get fit again (well, "fitter" may be a better word for it), and nothing to motivate one like a thought of 140km days in the not so distant future. Second, this stage is a bit of an atomic structure, in that it can't really be subdivided any further - it must be gulped in one go. Third, me, personally, would be willing to give it up altogether in favor of other adventures, but my son is at a stage where it's really important for him to finish what we started - he was really upset by these sections in France we had to skip, short as they were. Also, it seems like a grand preparation etape for EV13, if and when that will happen. So the plan is to try and see just for how long we can get away, me from work, and he from volunteering he's doing this year, and then do our best with it.

If you're camping on this leg remember that that slows everything down. Cooking too?

Yes, absolutely. I still don't understand my play here in terms of accommodations and food. It seems that price is not really a consideration - only availability. So I think to have everything for camping as a backup, but opt for beds and restaurants if available.

If stealth camping, my preferred method is to find a spot, spend some time checking it out, maybe eat (somewhere else) and only pitch up in the dark. It's not pleasant scanning for a place to pitch up in a strange place as night is falling.

Yes, I remember that from your Big Adventure. I was taking notes.

I get that this will be the last leg and there's probably an urge to finish it but....... speaking for myself, I'd rather do it comfortably than fast. Is there the possibility of breaking it into two legs or choosing another time so you'll have longer? That's an amazingly interesting part of the world and it has always struck me as the kind of place where the urgency of modern life hasn't intruded.

I mean, technically one can divide this into 2 roughly 700 km sections, and drop into the middle with a bus/train, but that would be... Wrong? It's silly, I know, but I kinda need a trip to have a proper beginning/end. And there's no place between Belgrade and the sea that qualifies as a period, it's all comas there.

As for being an interesting part of the world - well, maybe it's just me having seen plenty of rustic Eastern Europe growing up, I'm less excited about it than about less sparsely populated areas we've been to before. But it will be great fun for sure.

*It's a long time ago now, but I recall someone asking on CGOAB on a (almost) trans continental ride whether he should go E-W or W-E based on the fact that start and finish were something like 400ft different in elevation. The chap thought he had 400ft of climbing to do!

Hahaha, that's hilarious (said a chap who chose his first route - Donauradweg from Passau to Vienna - because it was following a river downstream, "and thus should all be on a decline").

If doing long days, day after day, then gradient can become more important as well as the placement of the climbing. Climbing at the end of a long day? That's tough.

Amen to that! I think the optimal placement of a major climb is in the middle of the day, followed by a nice city with maybe a cathedral to visit, and a restaurant across a square. Alas, not all the climbs and towns are optimized for a cycling tourist!

There have been significant changes post-Covid where some businesses just didn't survive or have changed ownership- On iOverlander we can see the last time someone "checked in".

Ah, that's a cool feature! Thanks, will give it a go!

Good luck!

Thanks Frank! Can't wait to hit the road!

 

[HobbesOnTour]

I have my bikeline book

Well then, anything else is moot! You're all set!

I'm not sure how would that work - I mean, they're probably just summing up the climbs of the constituent stages, no?

Yes, it's a summary. The value is in the simple display of what can be key info. In theory, the same thing could be done with, say, a 100 km stretch for a more accurate calculation of elevation.

Hahaha, that's hilarious (said a chap who chose his first route - Donauradweg from Passau to Vienna - because it was following a river downstream, "and thus should all be on a decline").

Ah, but that was booked about two weeks before I set off with less than zero time for planning . And was the germination of a "bike&canoe" tour for someday......

 

[dimrub]

Ah, but that was booked about two weeks before I set off with less than zero time for planning . And was the germination of a "bike&canoe" tour for someday......

Oh, you did that too? I was referring to myself