£7.2bn on the dockside

What would have happened if we didn’t have six jets to warn it off? Are they only testing our forces because they see the U.K. as a threat? Do they play similar games with Ireland?
They do the same to all countries that is within their interest. South Korea, Japan, the NATO countries and Baltic states etc. These are the states that have higher military expenditure to say a county in Africa.

The primary aim is to light up our radar and missile tracking defences and capture our defence signature. The intercepts are to stop them getting it.

So if we did not have the 6 jets, our defence signature is captured and they work on the weakest links. It is no different to not having a lock on your door and people know that you do not have a lock on your door.
 
Last edited:
I think it is a given that every sane person would prefer every penny goes to NHS for better equipment and services. So no arguments there.

So what do you do to protect your borders and fishery grounds. We can't ask our nurses to double up as soldiers at times of threat or crisis. We also can't covert the MRI scanner into a death ray by changing a few bibs and bobs.

I don't have an electric fence or a 6ft wall protecting my house. My friend in Cape Town however does and so do nearly all his neighbours as well as paying for private security patrols and having monkey bars installed on all windows. He is just a civil servant. They can't even afford to travel to Europe for a holiday.

There is always a reason why certain things are done.

What we must look for are abuses by the military and public services such as the recent case of the general whose wife and family were living a life of luxury on taxpayers money.

Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Finland, Israel, UAE, Norway and Greece all have conscription because of immediate threats from their neighbours. Which is the next level. And nobody wants conscription if they can help it
 
Last edited:

BoldonLad

Veteran
Location
South Tyneside
I think it is a given that every sane person would prefer every penny goes to NHS for better equipment and services. So no arguments there.

So what do you do to protect your borders and fishery grounds. We can't ask our nurses to double up as soldiers at times of threat or crisis. We also can't covert the MRI scanner into a death ray by changing a few bibs and bobs.

I don't have an electric fence or a 6ft wall protecting my house. My friend in Cape Town however does and so do nearly all his neighbours as well as paying for private security patrols and having monkey bars installed on all windows. He is just a civil servant. They can't even afford to travel to Europe for a holiday.

There is always a reason why certain things are done.

What we must look for are abuses by the military and public services such as the recent case of the general whose wife and family were living a life of luxury on taxpayers money.

Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Finland, Israel, UAE, Norway and Greece all have conscription because of immediate threats from their neighbours. Which is the next level. And nobody wants conscription if they can help it
Not disagreeing with you basic point(s), but, out of interest, do you think that similar abuse and waste, as you ascribe to the MOD also occur in the NHS?
 
Last edited:

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
There was an odd incident a few years ago. The media were full of the story that Russian bombers were intercepted North of Scotland but instead of turning back, they flew all the way around the UK & Ireland. That was slightly unusual. What was really unusual is the media reported that they were escorted by Mig25 fighters. What's odd about that is the Mig25 is a short range, very high speed interceptor designed to defend against high level US spy planes. They are no good as escorts as they have such a short range.

What really happened.

The bombers were actually tankers and the Mig25s did a high speed, high altitude run right down the length of the UK, rejoining the tankers in the Bay of Biscay. At the height and speed they were going, there was no time for an intercept and Putin sent a clear message.
 

newfhouse

Regressive elitist lefty
Putin sent a clear message
I’m not being obtuse but apart from “look at me” the message isn’t clear to me. Does anyone believe their probing aircraft would attack if not intercepted?

I understand that territorially the Russians bite chunks out of their neighbours, but isn’t the greater threat to us their cyber disruption, industrial espionage and social engineering capability? Isn’t defence against those where we should focus our funding, bearing in mind similar threats coming from China and many smaller hostile actors?

Back to the thread topic, how does having two aircraft carriers defend against current threats? Isn’t it just the U.K. saying “look at me” to distract from actual vulnerabilities?
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
I’m not being obtuse but apart from “look at me” the message isn’t clear to me. Does anyone believe their probing aircraft would attack if not intercepted?

I understand that territorially the Russians bite chunks out of their neighbours, but isn’t the greater threat to us their cyber disruption, industrial espionage and social engineering capability? Isn’t defence against those where we should focus our funding, bearing in mind similar threats coming from China and many smaller hostile actors?

Back to the thread topic, how does having two aircraft carriers defend against current threats? Isn’t it just the U.K. saying “look at me” to distract from actual vulnerabilities?
Some of the Russian neighbours are our NATO allies and Putin's constant pushing for "lebensraum" may need a military response at some stage. To that end, a carrier group in the North Atlantic is very, very important in protecting the sea lanes to the US. Additionally, as you mentioned, China is threatening allies in the Far East. We're setting up facilities to be able to operate out there and the QE is scheduled to have her first major deployment in the Pacific later this year. Both of these are "current" threats and the existence of cyber and social media engineering do not detract from them.
 
There was an odd incident a few years ago. The media were full of the story that Russian bombers were intercepted North of Scotland but instead of turning back, they flew all the way around the UK & Ireland. That was slightly unusual. What was really unusual is the media reported that they were escorted by Mig25 fighters. What's odd about that is the Mig25 is a short range, very high speed interceptor designed to defend against high level US spy planes. They are no good as escorts as they have such a short range.

What really happened.

The bombers were actually tankers and the Mig25s did a high speed, high altitude run right down the length of the UK, rejoining the tankers in the Bay of Biscay. At the height and speed they were going, there was no time for an intercept and Putin sent a clear message.
Very strange, given that the (then) Soviet Union retired the MiG-25 from frontline service 30 years ago.
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
Location
Midlands
Very strange, given that the (then) Soviet Union retired the MiG-25 from frontline service 30 years ago.
Aye, but Russia has a habit of recommissioned old military hardware. They've done it with tupilev tu-95 long range bombers, a number of naval assets and there are estimates of over 20000 tanks in storage and wouldn't mind betting a large sum on the recommissioning of a number of them should they require them, despite them largely being of obsolete, cold war design.
 
What I can't understand is how all our military stuff is scrapped and not moth balled . Thatcher sent people looking for the Gannet aircraft at the time of the Falklands war so that we could have some airborne early warning radar only to discover that they had been scrapped . A similar thing with the Nimrod's. Just about to go into service but were scrapped . There's no turning back when that's done .
America upgrades it's B52's and also refurbishes it's tanks . We like paying scrap men to scrap them !
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
Location
Midlands
What I can't understand is how all our military stuff is scrapped and not moth balled . Thatcher sent people looking for the Gannet aircraft at the time of the Falklands war so that we could have some airborne early warning radar only to discover that they had been scrapped . A similar thing with the Nimrod's. Just about to go into service but were scrapped . There's no turning back when that's done .
America upgrades it's B52's and also refurbishes it's tanks . We like paying scrap men to scrap them !
Indeed. I would agree with those that say there is monumental waste in the MOD. Nimrod was an old platform with spiraling costs, but it was a terrible decision to scrap them when they did. They'd already spend a significant amount of money on the platform and then Cameron came in a scrapped the lot, leaving us no maritime patrol capability for a decade! Billions flushed down the drain, with nothing to show for it. Awful decision at that time.
 
Indeed. I would agree with those that say there is monumental waste in the MOD. Nimrod was an old platform with spiraling costs, but it was a terrible decision to scrap them when they did. They'd already spend a significant amount of money on the platform and then Cameron came in a scrapped the lot, leaving us no maritime patrol capability for a decade! Billions flushed down the drain, with nothing to show for it. Awful decision at that time.
The Nimrod was a multi purpose aircraft . Maritime patrol, anti submarine, search and rescue . It could carry cruise missiles as well as homing torpedoes. They will have a job finding a replacement which is just as capable .
 
Top Bottom