A good reason not to buy a compact frame

[reacher]

Is it me or are compact frames unsafe ?
Turning today and my front foot jammed on the front wheel , quite a nasty fall as well , is this a common fault or have i got a badly designed bike or am i riding it wrong or something , when i look at the bike its a ridiculous design , i'm no expert but surely a bike should be long enough to turn a wheel with out your front foot hitting the front wheel , when i was a nipper they never did , having turned to cycling at the grand age i am it seems to me that bikes are worse than they were 45 odd years ago , an trust me the bikes we had then did not cost as much as this so called super modern design bag of shite i paid a fortune for now , it belongs in a circus with a migdet riding it i reckon ,

 

[HLaB]

I don't know if its unique to compact frames but some frames suffer quite a bit with toe overlap, its not too much of a problem for me but I don't do tight slow turns. My Sirrus is a compact frame and I can't ever remember it being a problem for me (but its on the turbo these days), I probably got used to it. It sounds like a compact was a problem for you however, I hope your fall wasn't too bad, GWS!

 

[derrick]

Never had a problem.
I only have small feet

 

[Smokin Joe]

It's nothing to do with whether the frame is a compact or not, toe overlap is determined by head-tube geometry and fork rake. I haven't owned a bike without toe overlap for about 45 years, and there isn't a racing frame made anywhere in the world that doesn't have it built in. It only effects you at walking pace speeds as that is the only time you actually steer the bike into a turn rather than banking it. Once you understand it it is easy to overcome, if you can't live with it then you need a touring frame, MTB or BSO.

 

[sidevalve]

You sound about my age. Try what I did. Sell the new jobby and buy an older machine in fair nick. A bit of TLC and maybe a few minor parts and you'll have a good bike that suits your idea of frame geometry and have a few quid left over.

 

[reacher]

i see ,

It's nothing to do with whether the frame is a compact or not, toe overlap is determined by head-tube geometry and fork rake. I haven't owned a bike without toe overlap for about 45 years, and there isn't a racing frame made anywhere in the world that doesn't have it built in. It only effects you at walking pace speeds as that is the only time you actually steer the bike into a turn rather than banking it. Once you understand it it is easy to overcome, if you can't live with it then you need a touring frame, MTB or BSO.

i see , maybe thats it then , more me than the bike , still dont trust it though , so are you saying that a normal square geomatry bike , like the old style bikes will be the same ?

 

[reacher]

You sound about my age. Try what I did. Sell the new jobby and buy an older machine in fair nick. A bit of TLC and maybe a few minor parts and you'll have a good bike that suits your idea of frame geometry and have a few quid left over.

lol . i have as it happens , its nearly ready to ride out , when you put the 2 bikes side by side they look totally differant , the old one is much longer , how ever i'm going to check this wheel malarky out see if its the same ,

 

[gambatte]

Never had a problem.
I only have small feet

Aah pity
Never mind, they say size isn't important...... not that I'd know!

 

[Smokin Joe]

i see ,


i see , maybe thats it then , more me than the bike , still dont trust it though , so are you saying that a normal square geomatry bike , like the old style bikes will be the same ?

Any race frame from any era will be the same, unless you go back to pre war days.

 

[gbb]

Look at older 'racing' bikes. Look at the space between the downtube and the front wheel. Thats where you'll see the difference.
Most modern frames are 'tight', short wheelbase, there's little space between the wheel and the downtube. There's one great advantage to this....it makes the bike very agile, particually in traffic or in a race, it responds very quickly to input from the handlebars.
Now get your older 'racing' bike out, loads of room behind the front wheel....but the things a pig in traffic, its unresponsive, slow to steer...horrible if you like to squirt in and out of traffic (like wot i do ) Its comfortable....but unresponsive.
Most of that room behind the wheel is dictated by the fork. My 70s Raleigh has an enormous amount of rake in the fork compared to modern bikes. That rake helps to absorb vibration, but at the cost of steering. My foot doesnt get withing a foot of the wheel (so's to speak) on the old bike.
Modern bikes have almost straight forks, very responsive but unforgiving re vibration. Even thats not really an issue nowadays with CF forks.

Everything has a plus and a negative.

 

[gaz]

Trick of the trade. If you are turning left, right foot down, if you are turning right, left foot down.
Don't pedal through slow turns.

As said, toe overlap is common on all modern road bikes, I suffer from it badly as I have size 12 feet. The only time it's been an issue for me was when riding fixed.

 

[reacher]

i just checked it , the compact dave hinde frame your foot jams up completely , you have no chance , it over laps by a good margin big time , on the 55 square frame i am re building it looks to me like it would just clear or at most its about 1/2 an inch , i would have to check when i get the peddles on , but its a differant set up altogether , in fact if i set the cleats to the front of the shoe it would clear i'm sure ,
how ever i'm no expert so i will re-check when the peddles are on , but i know that it will still be about the same , the compact is just that the wheels are too close to the peddles if you ask me ,

 

[derrick]

Aah pity
Never mind, they say size isn't important...... not that I'd know!

But i have got big thumbs.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

There are clearly two schools of thought on toe overlap. The "It's a bitch but unavoidable" camp's justifications are well represented by e.g. Dave Moulton, which, imho, are pretty comprehensively trashed by Chris Juden in his article on the matter (see 3rd paragraph from last, Moulton's point 3 and 4 neutralise each other in terms of trail while both will increase toe clearance). There might be some other subtleties I haven't noticed, but to me, for the vast majority of riders, it looks like an unjustifiable and totally unnecessary safety liability.

BTW it is a common misunderstanding that increased fork offset/rake makes steering sluggish. In reality as illustrated by the following diagram (since more trail = more sluggish/stable), the exact opposite is the case.

 

[Fab Foodie]

i see ,


i see , maybe thats it then , more me than the bike , still dont trust it though , so are you saying that a normal square geomatry bike , like the old style bikes will be the same ?

Yep.
My 1950s Holdsworth has notable toe overlap, morte than my compact Giant. It's no problem even with the 1950 bike being a fixed wheel. Be aware of it, but not worried.