Broken Spokes

[jarushby]

Just been out on another training ride (I am setting off on JOGLE in a few weeks time). After ~10miles and without hitting any pothole or bad surface two spokes broke on the back wheel. The wheels refused to go round (tyre against the frame). I managed to unclip before falling off :-)


I managed to replace the spokes at the side of the road and get the wheel to be true enough to go round without hitting the frame. I loosened off the rear brake pads and got the bike home.

I suppose the positive to come from this is that I now have experience of replacing the spokes and getting the wheel straight enough to get to a LBS should the need arise.

The downside is that my confidence in the wheels has been dented. I was 100% confident in the bike having done ~2,000 miles training over the last few months (loaded exactly as I will be for JOG).

The bike is a trek 1200 ,Alex Rim wheels (ATF450 I think) and wider tyres (700-32) . I weigh ~12 stones (78kg) and I will be carrying no more than a total of 10kg in luggage with ~8 kg on a rear rack).


My question is :- Is two spokes breaking just one of those things and as long as I get the wheel trued up and spoke tensions checked and corrected by someone who knows what they are doing it should be ok for JOGLE?, or is it a sign that many more spokes are likely to break over the course of the next few weeks.

Any advise greatly received

 

[Genman]

I'm presuming here that the broken spokes were on the non-drive side.
It seems counter intuitive as you might think that the greater tension is on the drive side,which it is in a stationary or freewheel mode, but what happens in effect is that the non drive side spokes have less tension until under load when they tighten and when unloaded they slacken. The constant tightening and slackening causes metal fatigue which is pretty indiscriminate, so you might have two breaks in a day or non in a month.
In short I'd get the wheel respoked.

 

[jarushby]

I'm presuming here that the broken spokes were on the non-drive side.
It seems counter intuitive as you might think that the greater tension is on the drive side,which it is in a stationary or freewheel mode, but what happens in effect is that the non drive side spokes have less tension until under load when they tighten and when unloaded they slacken. The constant tightening and slackening causes metal fatigue which is pretty indiscriminate, so you might have two breaks in a day or non in a month.
In short I'd get the wheel respoked.

Hi, thanks for the response. Both broken spokes were on the drive side (good job I had my cassette removal tool and chain whip). Does your advice still remain the same. ie replace the spokes, true the wheel and put it down to experience.

Thanks again

 

[RedBike]

Unless both spokes broke because they were damaged (chain rubbed against them?) then I would get the wheel re-built with all new spokes / get a new wheel. Once one spoke goes through fatigue then the rest soon follow.

 

[661-Pete]

Breaking two or more spokes in quick succession is surprisingly common. What happens is that the sudden release of tension on the now-broken spoke, has to be shifted somewhere else, so another spoke somewhere suddenly gets an extra bit of strain. If it was just about to go...

It all depends on the type of build of course, but I generally find that with up to about three broken on a 32- or 36-spoke wheel, one can get home, carefully at low speed and with the brake set back.

I have a broken spoke on my 'shopping' bike, on the freewheel side, which I haven't replaced for over a year now. I have utterly failed to get the (screw-on) block off, it's been jammed solidly into place for years. The wheel is not so out-of-true that the brakes don't work. I reckon to run the wheel into the ground: if another spoke goes (or the drive train becomes too worn to use), time to ditch the whole lot...

 

[Genman]

Breaking two or more spokes in quick succession is surprisingly common. What happens is that the sudden release of tension on the now-broken spoke, has to be shifted somewhere else, so another spoke somewhere suddenly gets an extra bit of strain. If it was just about to go...

It all depends on the type of build of course, but I generally find that with up to about three broken on a 32- or 36-spoke wheel, one can get home, carefully at low speed and with the brake set back.

I have a broken spoke on my 'shopping' bike, on the freewheel side, which I haven't replaced for over a year now. I have utterly failed to get the (screw-on) block off, it's been jammed solidly into place for years. The wheel is not so out-of-true that the brakes don't work. I reckon to run the wheel into the ground: if another spoke goes (or the drive train becomes too worn to use), time to ditch the whole lot...

Did you miss the bit about JOGLE in the OP?

 

[Genman]

Hi, thanks for the response. Both broken spokes were on the drive side (good job I had my cassette removal tool and chain whip). Does your advice still remain the same. ie replace the spokes, true the wheel and put it down to experience.

Thanks again

You're certainly well prepared, very good sense to train with your intended load.
Personally I would seek out a good wheel builder to re spoke, tension, and true the wheel, but if you can replace two spokes at the roadside you're probably more than capable of doing this yourself. Depends who you trust the most.
Good luck on your ride.

 

[Sheffield_Tiger]

Had similar recently with 2 boroken spokes, replaced the 2 and broke another.

My wheel is now happy (and I am not nervous about it!) following an afternoon re-building with known quality double butted spokes.

I don't think I could set of on a 30-40 mile ride in confidence without a rebuild, nevermind a C2C/JOGLE/any other challenge

 

[jarushby]

Guys, thanks for all your help and advise.

I think a rebuild/new wheel is the right way to go.

Just got a quote to rebuild the wheel. £33 for silver spokes and £43 for black spokes.

I also got a quote on line for a new hand built wheel (Mavic open sport, tiagra 9 speed hub and black spokes) for £65 inc delivery.

Apparently the mavic rims are a lot stronger than the Alex Rim AT450 so have opted for a new rear wheel. It should arrive by Saturday so need to use another bike to train on this week.

Will probably get the old wheel re-built (with silver spokes) or use it to practice my wheel building skills (at present its close to zero!!!).

Thanks again !!

 

[e-rider]

where did the spokes break? ie. near the nipple or at the J bend?

I did LEJOG with some mates and they were breaking spokes like there was no tomorrow - I didn't break one!

Once one goes you will likely break more as the remaining spokes become unbalanced and under more pressure.

For LEJOG/JOGLE you NEED something like DT swiss double butted spokes (DT competition) with BRASS nipples (not alloy), ideally with 36 spokes in each wheel (not 32). A good strong rim (not an avergae one) try a mid/top-range MAVIC with an arc-welded rim joint, and most important of all - a good build with perfect tension in the spokes.

Do ALL of this and you'll not break a spoke unless a truck hits you!

 

[e-rider]

the colour of the spokes is just a matter of taste - what is important is the quality of the spokes - YOU NEED good quality double butted spokes 2mm-1.8mm-2mm size, with brass nipples. Go for brands such as DT Swiss or SAPIM not cheaper brands!

If you want decent strong wheels for JOGLE take my advice!

 

[Sheffield_Tiger]

Guys, thanks for all your help and advise.

I think a rebuild/new wheel is the right way to go.

Just got a quote to rebuild the wheel. £33 for silver spokes and £43 for black spokes.

I also got a quote on line for a new hand built wheel (Mavic open sport, tiagra 9 speed hub and black spokes) for £65 inc delivery.

Apparently the mavic rims are a lot stronger than the Alex Rim AT450 so have opted for a new rear wheel. It should arrive by Saturday so need to use another bike to train on this week.

Will probably get the old wheel re-built (with silver spokes) or use it to practice my wheel building skills (at present its close to zero!!!).

Thanks again !!

Using it to learn to build your own wheel would be an excellent use of the opportunity IMO

Just make sure you get good quality spokes (DT/ Sapim) rather than cheap ones, that way you know you will have a good wheel at the end of your labours (there seems to be a common theme with broken spokes with unbranded chinese spokes used to keep costs down)

 

[jarushby]

where did the spokes break? ie. near the nipple or at the J bend?

I did LEJOG with some mates and they were breaking spokes like there was no tomorrow - I didn't break one!

Once one goes you will likely break more as the remaining spokes become unbalanced and under more pressure.

For LEJOG/JOGLE you NEED something like DT swiss double butted spokes (DT competition) with BRASS nipples (not alloy), ideally with 36 spokes in each wheel (not 32). A good strong rim (not an avergae one) try a mid/top-range MAVIC with an arc-welded rim joint, and most important of all - a good build with perfect tension in the spokes.

Do ALL of this and you'll not break a spoke unless a truck hits you!

I have ordered hand made wheels from "Dave Hinde" using Mavic Open Sport rim + double butted spokes. I have no idea what make but website suggests that the spokes they use are super strong (but I guess it wouldnt say anything else would it). I do hope I have not done the wrong thing. Have stuck with 32 holes but I am hoping that my weight + relatively light luggage should be within the limits of the wheel.

 

[jarushby]

where did the spokes break? ie. near the nipple or at the J bend?

I did LEJOG with some mates and they were breaking spokes like there was no tomorrow - I didn't break one!

Once one goes you will likely break more as the remaining spokes become unbalanced and under more pressure.

For LEJOG/JOGLE you NEED something like DT swiss double butted spokes (DT competition) with BRASS nipples (not alloy), ideally with 36 spokes in each wheel (not 32). A good strong rim (not an avergae one) try a mid/top-range MAVIC with an arc-welded rim joint, and most important of all - a good build with perfect tension in the spokes.

Do ALL of this and you'll not break a spoke unless a truck hits you!

Sorry, didnt answer your question. they both sheared at the nipple.

 

[e-rider]

Well, if it's not too late I change to 36h for JOGLE purposes. The 4 extra spoke will make a significant difference to strength and only add a tiny bit more weight.

Also make sure they are using BRASS nipples (don't accept alloy ones - no, really, don't), and I'd double check what spokes they are using. For example DT Swiss revolution spokes (2mm-1.5mm-2mm) are double butted but nowhere near as strong at DT Competition which are 2mm-1.8mm-2mm - but they are often sold as an upgrade because they are lighter. For strength you don't want super light!

Open sport rims are OK but not the strongest available. With 36 spokes they would be fine probably (they are pinned not welded though).

If you have ordered a 32h open sport rim with cheap db spokes and alloy nipples you will not have a strong touring wheel - simple!

EDIT: I see that Dave hinde is using ACI spokes - not my favourite but decent quality (there is no mention of Brass or alloy nipples on the web page)