Could Mohammed move a mountain or was that just PR?

[matticus]

Mr Cliché, I think the world would be a much lovelier place if everyone - including you - followed this idea:

I have no objection to people following whatever faith or belief system that they are comfortable with and that makes them happy.

 

[AuroraSaab]

People have always applied their own judgement and interpretation to their holy books. That's what the Talmud is - an examination and interpretation of the Torah. St Paul's letters explain to the early followers his view of what the teaching of Jesus means.

From the earliest times people have interpreted their holy books. Even in Islam. They have always been viewed as God's Word brought to the word through Man's imperfect understanding.

The speed limit might be 30 mph but we use our judgement to decide if it's appropriate. We don't insist on driving at 30 mph for every inch of the journey. Every day we make a million interpretations of everyday laws, rules, and regulations. In no way does it make us hypocrits for not following them word for word.

 

[matticus]

From the earliest times people have interpreted their holy books. Even in Islam. They have always been viewed as God's Word brought to the word through Man's imperfect understanding.

Mr Cliche and Mr Blue Hills think they can change these millennia of human behaviour through THE POWER OF INTERNET DEBATE!!!

 

[icowden]

Mr Cliché, I think the world would be a much lovelier place if everyone - including you - followed this idea:

That's true, but in return, those who follow a faith must divest themselves of the idea that their faith is more important than other people's beliefs or non beliefs. I think very few people have an objection to people following a faith. What they tend to object to is when that faith is used as a control method (i.e. historically most of the time) which depicts those who do not adhere to it as individuals who must be converted or punished.

Unfortunately that is *exactly* how religion works. And the more dogmatic and controlling the religion, the more extreme it tends to be (see Islam, Scientology, Christianity in the early days). That isn't to say that there isn't an equivalent to the C of E branch of Christianity in Islam, but that the perception is that if you draw pictures of Satan on a Christian church, aside from the vandalism charge, you are most likely to have caused sadness in the congregation and the vicar to say a prayer for your soul. Draw a picture of Mohammed on a mosque however and I suspect that the congregation may be less forgiving.

Religions do grow up, as their followers become more enlightened and more knowledgeable about the world, science and the politics behind religion. There will always be those who follow blindly and seem incapable of rational thought, but those are usually in the minority.

 

[matticus]

Religions do grow up, as their followers become more enlightened and more knowledgeable about the world, science and the politics behind religion. There will always be those who follow blindly and seem incapable of rational thought, but those are usually in the minority

i, I agree with pretty much your whole post (and you will find earlier posts of mine that support it

I've snipped out the above fragment, as I don't see the benefit in reptitive harking back to crimes from past centuries. This is 2021. Hitler and the Crusades were both a long time ago now.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Mr Cliché, I think the world would be a much lovelier place if everyone - including you - followed this idea:

There's a bit of a clue in that post on what principles I follow, but I'm glad you feel you can take it on board.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

People have always applied their own judgement and interpretation to their holy books. That's what the Talmud is - an examination and interpretation of the Torah. St Paul's letters explain to the early followers his view of what the teaching of Jesus means.

From the earliest times people have interpreted their holy books. Even in Islam. They have always been viewed as God's Word brought to the word through Man's imperfect understanding.

The speed limit might be 30 mph but we use our judgement to decide if it's appropriate. We don't insist on driving at 30 mph for every inch of the journey. Every day we make a million interpretations of everyday laws, rules, and regulations. In no way does it make us hypocrits for not following them word for word.

It just seems odd that an omniscient being would go to the bother of writing an instruction manual in such a vague way.

 

[matticus]

It just seems odd that an omniscient being would go to the bother of writing an instruction manual in such a vague way.

Do you believe in such beings? If you don't, then:
- how do you intend to answer your little dilemma? And
- why do you care?

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Do you believe in such beings? If you don't, then:
- how do you intend to answer your little dilemma? And
- why do you care?

I don't disbelieve, I just haven't seen evidence that the books are anything divine.

I'd like to believe, and I think understanding why others do could help.

Writing an instruction manual in a way that is so vague, millions have died over the interpretation doesn't seem to be the work of a caring divinity to me.

 

[matticus]

I don't disbelieve, I just haven't seen evidence that the books are anything divine.

I'd like to believe, and I think understanding why others do could help.

Oh OK, well I don't have any evidence, so good luck with that. (Have you done any research outside of CycleChat? How did that go?) Please let us know if you have a revelation!

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Oh OK, well I don't have any evidence, so good luck with that. (Have you done any research outside of CycleChat? How did that go?) Please let us know if you have a revelation!

That doesn't read like a very christian attitude, but as you ask, I have done quite a lot of looking in to at over the years, which is how I reached what is for me a considered opinion. I simply assumed that as you were on a thread about religion on a public forum, and seem quite eager to express your views, you would perhaps have answered the questions I asked in response to your comments, but hey ho.

 

[matticus]

I wished you luck. I feel hurt now

 

[swee'pea99]

What I said was It might be some people are born with same-sex attraction, although I am a bit sceptical.

Even if that is true, it is the result of man's fallen condition (the world is no longer 'good') and not something God created them with.

That is indeed what you said. But it doesn't make sense. You can say God has no choice in the matter - that He has to make some people homosexual because 'of man's fallen condition'. He's still doing it. You're now saying He's doing it because others have erred (which, in passing, strikes me as patently unfair, and impossible to tally with the meaning of the word 'righteous') but He's still doing it. He doesn't have to. At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, if you're God, you make the rules. He could have everyone born heterosexual even if predecessors have erred. So the issue remains: if God abominates homosexuals, why make them?

 

[ClichéGuevara]

That is indeed what you said. But it doesn't make sense. You can say God has no choice in the matter - that He has to make some people homosexual because 'of man's fallen condition'. He's still doing it. You're now saying He's doing it because others have erred (which, in passing, strikes me as patently unfair, and impossible to tally with the meaning of the word 'righteous') but He's still doing it. He doesn't have to. At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, if you're God, you make the rules. He could have everyone born heterosexual even if predecessors have erred. So the issue remains: if God abominates homosexuals, why make them?

If you think about an omnipotent being, existing alone in infinity, they maybe fancied a challenge. Creating light and dark filled a gap, then creatures, but that seemed to need a few goes. Eventually they made man.

Now, is that omnipotent being going to be interested in creatures that follow the rules in a manual like clockwork toys, and fight to the death over interpretations?

Maybe, the purpose of the holy books, is god's test to weed out the ones they wouldn't want to spend eternity with, and make sure there are more free thinkers that live peaceful lives to give food them for thought.

 

[icowden]

If you think about an omnipotent being, existing alone in infinity, they maybe fancied a challenge. Creating light and dark filled a gap, then creatures, but that seemed to need a few goes. Eventually they made man.

OK - so why did this being make gazillions of galaxies, full of stars and planets, but just focus on ONE planet in ONE solar system in ONE Galaxy? Is he just really *really* bad at making habitable planets? Cos that's a LOT of practicing.

Alternatively, has he been begetting children and having them executed all over the universe? Or is Jesus just a *REALLY* busy sado-masochist?
If He is desirous of people worshipping only him, why did He create all the other religions?
Why did he mess around with dinosaurs? (unless he was just playing with the pleistocene - apols to Terry Pratchett).

At best, we know *something* started the universe. Maybe that was a divine creator. Maybe it was just a bottom burp. The rest is just mythologising to make up for lack of knowledge, same as when most people try to explain why the sky is blue.