Deliveroo IPO disaster - A question of ethics

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
I know quite a few,although in the current pandemic they've been effectively put out of work.To drive a black cab and do the knowledge takes commitment as well as money ! 50 grand plus for the electric TXE and that's before you go to work.Four years roughly to do the knowledge.Its a massive investment.
Compared to minicabs/Uber who need a car and sat nav and of you go.Self employed blokes against the likes of Uber is a tough call.Your paying for a service,bit like do you use some dodgy DIY person or a professional.How many attacks every week on people getting into unlicenced mini cabs ? Yea I know everyone is always going to go back to Warboys the black cab rapist.One man out of 20 odd thousand drivers.But I'm sure your a lot safer traveling in a black taxi than minicabs.You pay for what you get.
That's fine if you have a choice, which you don't if you live in outer London and want to go a mile or three locally.

Some Black cab drivers are quick to moan about mini-cabs, yet they are not prepared to cover the work the mini-cabs do.

Mini-cabs are now regulated, although I don't know to what extent.
 

Adam4868

Guru
That's fine if you have a choice, which you don't if you live in outer London and want to go a mile or three locally.

Some Black cab drivers are quick to moan about mini-cabs, yet they are not prepared to cover the work the mini-cabs do.

Mini-cabs are now regulated, although I don't know to what extent.
I didn't say don't use a reputable firm/company though.By the way most of the suburbs of London are covered by Black cabs be it on a radio company or app.
Getting back to the point of the discussion though I wouldn't touch Uber for all sorts of reasons.TFL obviously thought the same.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
That's fine if you have a choice, which you don't if you live in outer London and want to go a mile or three locally.

Some Black cab drivers are quick to moan about mini-cabs, yet they are not prepared to cover the work the mini-cabs do.

Mini-cabs are now regulated, although I don't know to what extent.
I live in outer London, and just checked on the FreeNow (Black cab) hailing app for a journey of 1 mile to Wimbledon train station, there are half a dozen cab options (size, style) presented with a 4 minute arrival time. If I choose one, it will be live tracked on the map till it arrives at my door.
 

Eric Olthwaite

Insert witty self-deprecating description here
Black cabs v Uber is perhaps a false dichotomy. Many thousands work as mini cab drivers, paying the mini cab firm a fee for every ride, rent for the booking tech, etc.

Mini cab firms don't seem to come in for the same criticism as Uber, so a genuine question - what employment rights do minicab drivers enjoy, that Uber drivers do not?
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
I live in outer London, and just checked on the FreeNow (Black cab) hailing app for a journey of 1 mile to Wimbledon train station, there are half a dozen cab options (size, style) presented with a 4 minute arrival time. If I choose one, it will be live tracked on the map till it arrives at my door.
Looks like the Black cabs have been forced to take on work they used not to be so keen on.

Most likely the drivers bidding for your job will have the easier to get suburban yellow badge as opposed to the prized all London green one.

https://www.taxitradepromotions.co.uk/which-taxi-licence.html
 

Adam4868

Guru
Black cabs v Uber is perhaps a false dichotomy. Many thousands work as mini cab drivers, paying the mini cab firm a fee for every ride, rent for the booking tech, etc.

Mini cab firms don't seem to come in for the same criticism as Uber, so a genuine question - what employment rights do minicab drivers enjoy, that Uber drivers do not?
Why is it,the vast majority of Black cab drivers are sole traders,self employed one man bands so to speak.
Not saying that there isn't the same in mini cabs but Uber...just been dragged through the courts kicking and screaming.There sole aim is to flood the market with cars,they care nothing of their workers.
 

Adam4868

Guru
Looks like the Black cabs have been forced to take on work they used not to be so keen on.

Most likely the drivers bidding for your job will have the easier to get suburban yellow badge as opposed to the prized all London green one.

https://www.taxitradepromotions.co.uk/which-taxi-licence.html
There's always been yellow(suburban) and green (all London) drivers.Theres allways been a choice.
Shame TFL and others chose to look the other way when it suited them for the likes of Uber.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
I know quite a few,although in the current pandemic they've been effectively put out of work.To drive a black cab and do the knowledge takes commitment as well as money ! 50 grand plus for the electric TXE and that's before you go to work.Four years roughly to do the knowledge.Its a massive investment.
Compared to minicabs/Uber who need a car and sat nav and of you go.Self employed blokes against the likes of Uber is a tough call.Your paying for a service,bit like do you use some dodgy DIY person or a professional.How many attacks every week on people getting into unlicenced mini cabs ? Yea I know everyone is always going to go back to Warboys the black cab rapist.One man out of 20 odd thousand drivers.But I'm sure your a lot safer traveling in a black taxi than minicabs.You pay for what you get.
I think the safety aspect of Uber is an attraction c/f minicabs. The reality is there are no black cabs within about 10 miles of us and when we used to schlep into Manchester they were difficult to hail in an evening. The fact you can identify the driver, let a friend track the car after pickup is very helpful

I'm not sure the knowledge is that helpful now. Seems an awful lot of hard work when you can just get a cheap satnav. I suppose it may help in certain circumstances but it feels like satnavs have rendered the mystique of the knowledge to the dustbin
 
OP
Arrowfoot

Arrowfoot

Guru
I recall the general sentiments just before Uber got their temporary licence, I think 18 months. It was felt that Uber drivers cannot surpass Black Cab drivers in terms of knowledge, safety of drivers and vehicle etc.

The app changed everything - projected price, GPS, home base mapped, convenience, expected wait time, driver rating etc. Then people found out that they can hail a uber in their outer London vicinity more easily. The existing cab industry got caught flat footed. The same happened in other countries.

Overnight the sentiments changed. People realised for instance that with a phone and GPS, knowledge was no longer pivotal.

I don't think anyone expected the outcome.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
Black cabs v Uber is perhaps a false dichotomy. Many thousands work as mini cab drivers, paying the mini cab firm a fee for every ride, rent for the booking tech, etc.

Mini cab firms don't seem to come in for the same criticism as Uber, so a genuine question - what employment rights do minicab drivers enjoy, that Uber drivers do not?
You're right. All the black cab drivers and minicab drivers are self employed. None of them get SSP, Company pension, SMP etc. Given that Uber drivers will receive some benefits of employment by Uber it could be argues that, from the perspective of employee benefits, Uber drivers are better off. I do agree that "working for Uber" may result in a lower rate of pay per hour but I'm talking about employee benefits, none of which the black cab or mini cab drivers get
 

Adam4868

Guru
I think the safety aspect of Uber is an attraction c/f minicabs. The reality is there are no black cabs within about 10 miles of us and when we used to schlep into Manchester they were difficult to hail in an evening. The fact you can identify the driver, let a friend track the car after pickup is very helpful

I'm not sure the knowledge is that helpful now. Seems an awful lot of hard work when you can just get a cheap satnav. I suppose it may help in certain circumstances but it feels like satnavs have rendered the mystique of the knowledge to the dustbin
The safety aspect would be what steers me away from Uber.Before we even get to the ethics of the company.
Getting back to the thread is this not what maybe Deliveroo and it's investors fear...that there workers are going to be classed as employees in the future.
Good riddance to the gig economy ?
 

Adam4868

Guru
I recall the general sentiments just before Uber got their temporary licence, I think 18 months. It was felt that Uber drivers cannot surpass Black Cab drivers in terms of knowledge, safety of drivers and vehicle etc.

The app changed everything - projected price, GPS, home base mapped, convenience, expected wait time, driver rating etc. Then people found out that they can hail a uber in their outer London vicinity more easily. The existing cab industry got caught flat footed. The same happened in other countries.

Overnight the sentiments changed. People realised for instance that with a phone and GPS, knowledge was no longer pivotal.

I don't think anyone expected the outcome.
So we agree as long as it's cheap people will use them....feck the workers.
 
OP
Arrowfoot

Arrowfoot

Guru
So we agree as long as it's cheap people will use them....feck the workers.
Not at all.

The focus must always be fair compensation and a living wage must be part of it. The fact that Deliveroo flooded their rider pool and lowered the overall income stream while claiming average compensation is up there is misleading and dishonest. They should be called out for it.

I like to see the authorities commission an independent study with the powers to subpoena people and documents. The 300 rider study by the investigative journalism group has been questioned and challenged without releasing their own documents. That studied carried actual Deliveroo invoices.

This Govt is coy because the they want to attract the tech industry. Competing priorities is a nice word.
 

Adam4868

Guru
Not at all.

The focus must always be fair compensation and a living wage must be part of it. The fact that Deliveroo flooded their rider pool and lowered the overall income stream while claiming average compensation is up there is misleading and dishonest. They should be called out for it.

I like to see the authorities commission an independent study with the powers to subpoena people and documents. The 300 rider study by the investigative journalism group has been questioned and challenged without releasing their own documents. That studied carried actual Deliveroo invoices.

This Govt is coy because the they want to attract the tech industry. Competing priorities is a nice word.
These companies exploit workers and avoid tax wherever they can.But it's technology move with the times I'm told.By my kids ! Not for me,be better off without them.
 
OP
Arrowfoot

Arrowfoot

Guru
These companies exploit workers and avoid tax wherever they can.But it's technology move with the times I'm told.By my kids ! Not for me,be better off without them.
You just hit the "me going berserk" button with the tax thing. I am so upset that US companies have gotten away with billions because their UK business is homed in Dublin, Amsterdam and Luxembourg. Despite the major revenue stream is sales in the UK. Then we wonder how come NHS is not receiving funding and doctors are getting paid less that those in Singapore and Australia.
 
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