Did 17th century Americans say "zee"

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Tim Bennet. said:
In the UK, we are now so exposed to these differences, that we are all intrinsically bilingual to a degree.

No, I fear that we're actually ending-up with people in this country becoming illiterate and inarticulate because they adopt US spellings and pronunciations

e.g. spelling it as 'curb' when they mean 'kerb' (and don't mean 'curb')
pronouncing 'defence' as DEEfence rathe than deaf-ence
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
andy_wrx said:
No, I fear that we're actually ending-up with people in this country becoming illiterate and inarticulate because they adopt US spellings and pronunciations

e.g. spelling it as 'curb' when they mean 'kerb' (and don't mean 'curb')
pronouncing 'defence' as DEEfence rathe than deaf-ence

I wouldn't say the curb/kerb example was down to US influence, just down to general ignorance of the correct spelling.
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
andy_wrx said:
No, I fear that we're actually ending-up with people in this country becoming illiterate and inarticulate because they adopt US spellings and pronunciations

e.g. spelling it as 'curb' when they mean 'kerb' (and don't mean 'curb')
pronouncing 'defence' as DEEfence rathe than deaf-ence

I wouldn't say the curb/kerb example was down to US influence, just down to general ignorance of the correct spelling.
 

Canrider

Guru
It's not that I'm entirely disagreeing with you, Tim, but 1677 < 1776, if you catch my drift..
So if 'zee' was being listed as correct 100 years before the revolution, it weakens (IMO) your claim that it has everything to do with post-revolution zeal.
I wouldn't say the curb/kerb example was down to US influence, just down to general ignorance of the correct spelling.
..or we could just accept that both are correct..
 

Canrider

Guru
It's not that I'm entirely disagreeing with you, Tim, but 1677 < 1776, if you catch my drift..
So if 'zee' was being listed as correct 100 years before the revolution, it weakens (IMO) your claim that it has everything to do with post-revolution zeal.
I wouldn't say the curb/kerb example was down to US influence, just down to general ignorance of the correct spelling.
..or we could just accept that both are correct..
 

Tim Bennet.

Entirely Average Member
Location
S of Kendal
I was unclear:

The evolution of English has not been a linear development from a single origin. Regional, class and educational differences must have lead to a far wider variation in what we understand to be the 'English' of the 17th century than we have to cope with even today.

It's significant that early text books (including Thomas Lye's New Spelling Book of 1677) offered variations, to something as basic as the pronunciation of the letter Z, which had come to us via the French Zède who got it from the Roman Zeta, who in turn got it from the Greeks and possibly Phoenicians. Although these same sources are attributed as the rationale to the pronunciation 'Zed', it's also understandable that some scholars without verbal references might have chosen to offer 'Zee' as a more plausible alternative to a letter with these roots.

Either way it was not a hugely contentious issue at that time as neither, zoos, zebras, Zulus, zonkeys or zoom lenses were that common. Shakespeare in King Lear, has Kent scream at Oswald "Thou whoreson Zed, thou unnecessary letter!"

It's generally assumed, although not universally, that these 'minor variations' were seized upon in the post revolution enthusiasm to embrace anything that differentiated the new American citizens from the 'official' British Colonial position on nearly everything. So adopting the speech idiosyncrasies that still existed in perhaps west country migrants or even immigrants from non English speaking areas, was done in a hope they could quickly sound as different as possible to their enemies 'the English', who by then had officially adopted 'zed' as that was the version included in Samuel Johnson's first English dictionary of 1755.

The official American adoption of 'Zee' was confirmed by Noah Webster's inclusion in his 'Dictionary of the English Language' (1828 ); Z - It is pronounced 'Zee'.
 

Tim Bennet.

Entirely Average Member
Location
S of Kendal
I was unclear:

The evolution of English has not been a linear development from a single origin. Regional, class and educational differences must have lead to a far wider variation in what we understand to be the 'English' of the 17th century than we have to cope with even today.

It's significant that early text books (including Thomas Lye's New Spelling Book of 1677) offered variations, to something as basic as the pronunciation of the letter Z, which had come to us via the French Zède who got it from the Roman Zeta, who in turn got it from the Greeks and possibly Phoenicians. Although these same sources are attributed as the rationale to the pronunciation 'Zed', it's also understandable that some scholars without verbal references might have chosen to offer 'Zee' as a more plausible alternative to a letter with these roots.

Either way it was not a hugely contentious issue at that time as neither, zoos, zebras, Zulus, zonkeys or zoom lenses were that common. Shakespeare in King Lear, has Kent scream at Oswald "Thou whoreson Zed, thou unnecessary letter!"

It's generally assumed, although not universally, that these 'minor variations' were seized upon in the post revolution enthusiasm to embrace anything that differentiated the new American citizens from the 'official' British Colonial position on nearly everything. So adopting the speech idiosyncrasies that still existed in perhaps west country migrants or even immigrants from non English speaking areas, was done in a hope they could quickly sound as different as possible to their enemies 'the English', who by then had officially adopted 'zed' as that was the version included in Samuel Johnson's first English dictionary of 1755.

The official American adoption of 'Zee' was confirmed by Noah Webster's inclusion in his 'Dictionary of the English Language' (1828 ); Z - It is pronounced 'Zee'.
 

jay clock

Massive member
Location
Hampshire UK
'your dog sure has got a pretty arse',

should be "yo bitch sure has a purdy ass"
 

Tim Bennet.

Entirely Average Member
Location
S of Kendal
You may want to consider using 'dawg' instead of 'bitch' in that translation. They can be very touchy about the way you refer to their dogs, including issues of gender, etc.

Also a few (very few) might even take offence if they thought you were referring to their wives. But generally if you're complimentary about their dog, pick up truck, bass boat and gun, they're more than happy to overlook any minor social faux pas like slagging off their women folk.
 

Tim Bennet.

Entirely Average Member
Location
S of Kendal
You may want to consider using 'dawg' instead of 'bitch' in that translation. They can be very touchy about the way you refer to their dogs, including issues of gender, etc.

Also a few (very few) might even take offence if they thought you were referring to their wives. But generally if you're complimentary about their dog, pick up truck, bass boat and gun, they're more than happy to overlook any minor social faux pas like slagging off their women folk.
 

twentysix by twentyfive

Clinging on tightly
Location
Over the Hill
Tim Bennet. said:
You may want to consider using 'dawg' instead of 'bitch' in that translation. They can be very touchy about the way you refer to their dogs, including issues of gender, etc.

Also a few (very few) might even take offence if they thought you were referring to their wives. But generally if you're complimentary about their dog, pick up truck, bass boat and gun, they're more than happy to overlook any minor social faux pas like slagging off their women folk.


Yep sure is a civilised country ain't it. An example to the rest of the world. ;)
 

twentysix by twentyfive

Clinging on tightly
Location
Over the Hill
Tim Bennet. said:
You may want to consider using 'dawg' instead of 'bitch' in that translation. They can be very touchy about the way you refer to their dogs, including issues of gender, etc.

Also a few (very few) might even take offence if they thought you were referring to their wives. But generally if you're complimentary about their dog, pick up truck, bass boat and gun, they're more than happy to overlook any minor social faux pas like slagging off their women folk.


Yep sure is a civilised country ain't it. An example to the rest of the world. ;)
 
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