Examples of the EU's anti-democratic tendancies

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Exhibit 1: Mario Monti - Brussels technocrat who was appointed Italy's prime minister, despite never having been elected. He replaced Silvio Berlusconi, who despite his numerous failings, had been elected prime minister of his country.
 

The Crofted Crest

Senior Member
Erm, the -- elected -- President of Italy appointed Monti to the Italian Senate and then asked him to become prime minister when Berlusconi resigned. All the political parties in parliament except populist Lega Nord approved his appointment. He lost early elections he called the following year but remained prime minister until a new coalition was formed.
 
OP
Yellow Fang
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And if the EU put pressure on an EU state to sack their democratically elected leader so that one of their EU apparatchiks can be appointed leader in his place, that is apparently a perfectly bottom up process.
 
OP
Yellow Fang
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Erm, the -- elected -- President of Italy appointed Monti to the Italian Senate and then asked him to become prime minister when Berlusconi resigned. All the political parties in parliament except populist Lega Nord approved his appointment. He lost early elections he called the following year but remained prime minister until a new coalition was formed.
The Italian president is not elected by the people. He is elected by other Italian politicians. His functions are roughly analogous to the Queen's. It's as if the EU forced Parliament to hold a vote of no confidence in the prime minister and then forced the Queen to appoint Peter Mandleson in his place.
 

roubaixtuesday

Über Member
Yellow, you're going to have to explain why you're blaming the problems in Italian politics on the EU.

Otherwise you're in danger of sounding like an obsessive zealot.

And we know that's not likely for opponents of the EU, don't we?

So do yourself a favour and actually explain what the EU did in this circumstance that was anti democratic.
 

Bromptonaut

Rohan Man
Location
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The Italian president is not elected by the people. He is elected by other Italian politicians. His functions are roughly analogous to the Queen's. It's as if the EU forced Parliament to hold a vote of no confidence in the prime minister and then forced the Queen to appoint Peter Mandleson in his place.
The Italian President who appointed Monti was elected in accordance with the constitutional principles of the Italian Republic; via the membership of both houses of their parliament. Monti himself was an Italian economist who had served several terms on the EU Commission. He was to head a government of technocrats to implement policies required as a condition of Italy being bailed out of a financial crisis. It was in that crisis becuase it joined the Euro but then refused to play by the rules. The lenders were not likely to approve that while a government head by the disgraced Berlusconi remained in office. As pointed out above the appointment was approved by all parties other then the League.

How do you imagine that, in a UK scenario, the EU could force parliament to hold a vote of no confidence still less decide whom the Queen might appoint PM?
 
OP
Yellow Fang
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Yellow, you're going to have to explain why you're blaming the problems in Italian politics on the EU.

Otherwise you're in danger of sounding like an obsessive zealot.

And we know that's not likely for opponents of the EU, don't we?

So do yourself a favour and actually explain what the EU did in this circumstance that was anti democratic.
I am not blaming the EU for all Italy's economic problems. I am saying the EU is not all that democratic. On this forum, anyone who's not a paid up member of the United States of Europe fan club is a zealot.
 

Dec66

A gentlemanly pootler, these days
Location
West Wickham
Yellow, you're going to have to explain why you're blaming the problems in Italian politics on the EU.

Otherwise you're in danger of sounding like an obsessive zealot.

And we know that's not likely for opponents of the EU, don't we?

So do yourself a favour and actually explain what the EU did in this circumstance that was anti democratic.
* Insert tumbleweed.gif here *
 
OP
Yellow Fang
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The Italian President who appointed Monti was elected in accordance with the constitutional principles of the Italian Republic; via the membership of both houses of their parliament. Monti himself was an Italian economist who had served several terms on the EU Commission. He was to head a government of technocrats to implement policies required as a condition of Italy being bailed out of a financial crisis. It was in that crisis becuase it joined the Euro but then refused to play by the rules. The lenders were not likely to approve that while a government head by the disgraced Berlusconi remained in office. As pointed out above the appointment was approved by all parties other then the League.

How do you imagine that, in a UK scenario, the EU could force parliament to hold a vote of no confidence still less decide whom the Queen might appoint PM?
Neither Mario Monti nor his cabinet were actually elected. They were all appointees. They were appointed by their president, who to be fair, was elected. But surely his job was to invite someone from the elected representatives to form a government. Not to impose technocrats at the behest of an external body.

Membership of the Euro is somewhat undemocratic. Elected governments in countries that use it cannot devalue their currency. They cannot change interest rates to suit their own economies. Its all under control of the European Central Bank. What sort of democratic oversight do they have? I would say they are at least three removes away from anyone who is democratically elected. The governor of the Bank of England is maybe one or two removes. Gordon Brown gave the Bank of England the power to set interest rates, but I don't suppose there's anything stopping a future government from taking it back.
 
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