Examples of the EU's anti-democratic tendancies

Kajjal

Veteran
Location
Wheely World
No it's not.
Oh yes it is, look out they are behind you :okay:
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
So they will just allow it through without checks that what is on the manifest is actually in the container.


Hint,


They won't!
If you would read the information on my link you would know most of it goes trough a scan in a special train leaving only suspected or high risk containers needing an inspection. It is'nt that if the uk leaves the EU that the uk has to reinvent the wheel again, you can use solutions that have being proven effective elsewhere there's nothing wrong with that.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
I don't believe the EU is anti-democratic at all, but there will always be problems in finding the best form of democracy in an organisation of 27 members where the voters may have different political leanings, different priorities and information is controlled by different news media. The vast size and variety of the electorate means there has to be a large bureaucracy merely to function day-to-day. Sometimes that bureaucracy will err in its decision making processes, but those processes can be scrutinised and changed.

The nearest to a true democracy is government by a series of referendums, and we have seen where those can lead.
Yes there is a country called Switzerland they have referendums all the time, all referendums are binding and all you need is 50.000 signatures to start one and is working very well over there. So it is possible. The EU just elected an incompetent, corrupt, not fit for purpose women to take over Junckers position all behind closed doors. How that for democracy?


A livestream does'nt change the system nor does it say anything
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
Ahem*

The British, plus the USA, plus the USSR, plus assorted other countries ....
I know I know !! ^_^ Whilst I think Churchill was right to worry Britain's sacrifice would end up being forgotten or at least submerged - and the Holywood propaganda machine has to some extent enabled this, it was the USSR that tore the guts out of the Wehrmacht and paid the highest price in blood, whilst the USA supplied unbelievable amounts of war material to the other main allies. Even in post-communist modern Russia there has been some rehabilitation of Stalin, and the myth that Russia could have beaten the Germans on its own without the supplies that came from the West (Anthony Beevor relates this in a lecture), so Britain is not alone in trying to make WW2 the pinnacle of its historical achievement.

There is a line of argument that by declaring war in 1939 when not prepared for it, an out of touch British elite in a sense started WW2, they grossly over-estimated British strength, and when things fell apart the war spread to the whole of Europe and later beyond. Out of touch British elite seems to have an ominously contemporary ring to it ....
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
Yes there is a country called Switzerland they have referendums all the time, all referendums are binding and all you need is 50.000 signatures to start one and is working very well over there. So it is possible.
Switzerland is a relatively small country, and this is more feasible than say a country of 50 to 80 million people, at least on a regular basis. It's also a part of Swiss tradition, something lacking in the UK for instance. Referenda at EU would be monstrous to organise, so electing representatives is probably the best, if imperfect, form of democracy at trans-national level.

The EU just elected an incompetent, corrupt, not fit for purpose women to take over Junckers position all behind closed doors. How that for democracy?
It's bad for democracy, and I'm not sure you will garner much support from anywhere saying anything different. She has not yet been confirmed in office, and it is possible she might yet be stopped. I know a stock reply to this is that Britain is not in much of a position to criticise, e.g. the current PM contest and an unelected Upper Chamber, but that should not distract from the fact the EU does need reform.
 
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Oh look. Is this from The Telegraph, The Express, The Mail, even The Morning Star? No 'tis from a paper even more Remainer than The Guardian, The Independent.
 

Rusty Nails

We remember
Location
Here and there
There is a line of argument that by declaring war in 1939 when not prepared for it, an out of touch British elite in a sense started WW2, they grossly over-estimated British strength, and when things fell apart the war spread to the whole of Europe and later beyond. Out of touch British elite seems to have an ominously contemporary ring to it ....
So what should have happened in 1939?

Was it all our fault again? Perhaps we should have been more forward thinking and got one up on Germany by working with France to start an organisation called something like the Union of Europe, or the UE.
 

cookiemonster

Legendary Member
Location
Hong Kong
No, once a law has gone through, there is no democratic means of forcing its repeal.
https://www.dw.com/en/what-are-the-powers-of-the-european-parliament/a-4295011

Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal from the Council, or propose amendments to it.


The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.

We don't have a veto any more. Not since Lisbon.
That’s nonsense. Are you trying to say that no EU nation has a veto? The UK uses its veto more than any other nation. For example, the UK vetoing the EU’s plan to stop Chinese steel dumping in Europe to save their steel industries. Recently, British Steel’s gone bust and one reason being cited is Chinese steel dumping. Every EU nation has a veto, Lisbon does not change that.
 
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Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
So what should have happened in 1939?
That is an extremely interesting question, though unfortunately continuing a tangent to the subject of the thread! One thing is sure - Hitler completely outwitted the democracies with his pact with Stalin, meaning he wouldn't have to fight a war on two fronts. That said, I have seen it argued that Britain at that time was at best a half-democracy. A settled elite doing its own thing in its own world, minding it own Empire.
 

Kajjal

Veteran
Location
Wheely World
If you would read the information on my link you would know most of it goes trough a scan in a special train leaving only suspected or high risk containers needing an inspection. It is'nt that if the uk leaves the EU that the uk has to reinvent the wheel again, you can use solutions that have being proven effective elsewhere there's nothing wrong with that.
While being in breach of the key principles of the EU and also WTO rules. Repeating it does not change this.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
While being in breach of the key principles of the EU and also WTO rules. Repeating it does not change this.
It does not have anything to do with it. This is more about the technical side in terms of how do you efficiently and still securely check loads of goods. not about whether or not trade deals are in place and so on.
 
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