Examples of the EU's anti-democratic tendancies

cookiemonster

Legendary Member
Location
Hong Kong
I’ve just read that if BJ wins to be the next PM, elected by 0.1% of the electorate, he’s planning to send parliamentarians home for 2 weeks at the end of October to prevent them blocking a no deal.

Again, what was it you were saying about an un-democratic EU?
 

Kajjal

Veteran
Location
Wheely World
I'm not defending the British electoral system. I think it's bent. However, you could actually influence who is the next Conservative leader. You would just have to join the Conservative Party to do so. Just like lots of people paid £3 to join the Labour Party, who along with Labour MPs and the trade unions might have inflicted Jeremy Corbyn on an unwilling populace. Nevertheless, if the appointment of the Prime Minister is one remove away from a democratic vote, the appointment of the European Commissioners and the EU presidents and other high office holders is at least two removes away. A British voter votes for an MP, who along with party members and, in the case of Labour, trade unions, vote for a party leader, who may become the prime minister. This person then appoints their two EU commissioners, the process of which is murky, and horse trades behind closed doors with 27 other national leaders to appoint the the EU high officials. So the persons who are appointed Jean Claude Juncker's and Donald Tusk's successors are people we have never heard of, appointed by our indirectly elected national leader and 27 other national leaders whom we have not voted for in any way.

I see the European Parliament confirmed Ursula von de Leyen as our new punisher, so get used to spelling her name.
Unfortunately that’s just another criticism, people can criticise as much they like but brexit needs a detailed real world plan containing the benefits as well as the costs & how to mitigate them. Are you suggesting the EU should copy the brexit party structure by becoming a company with an unelected head due to their being no members to vote for the leader and the unelected leader has complete unchallenged control over the whole party ?
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
Unfortunately that’s just another criticism, people can criticise as much they like but brexit needs a detailed real world plan containing the benefits as well as the costs & how to mitigate them. Are you suggesting the EU should copy the brexit party structure by becoming a company with an unelected head due to their being no members to vote for the leader and the unelected leader has complete unchallenged control over the whole party ?
View: https://twitter.com/LukeShawWorcs/status/1151260618743275520
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
If a choice of 1 is undemocratic, then so was the 2016 referendum.

Farage had a choice whether to vote for or against the candidate.
Voters in 2016 had a choice whether to vote for or against staying in the EU.

Both one choice.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
Examples? I'll wait. :cuppa:

Also, airlines are in code share agreements (One World, Star Alliance to name the big two) purely to expand their routes and make it easier for passengers. This has zip to do with the EU. Poor example (among many you've used) so try again using, dare I say it, facts.
You don't read what i'm saying not one word of it so what do i need to prove? I never said that the airline alliances had anything to do with th EU. I said that there are many other examples of aliances is response to an claim that international companies need something like the EU to efficiently work across nations. I understand that large companies ''ll go to an certain extent to prove these kind of statements as having a lobby in the eu makes them lazy. It also emboldens large companies at the cost of smaller and medium sized companies. Youtube can employ more then enough people to comply with all those silly content controlling rules. but would a startup let's call it ''smalltube'' just as easily? Surely not here you go a other example of why the EU is not working for normal people it does work great for big companies and failed politician's like ms von der Leyden, the succesor to Juncker that nobody knew or has voted for. In yet a other demonstration of ''the ever undemocratic union''
Just like the HOC, HOL and the next PM being chosen by just 0.1% of the electorate.

What was it you were saying about the EU being un-democratic?
What has the uk of any other country to do with it? It about the EU not about the uk. Sure there is enough to say about what's not correct in the uk but why change the topic?
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
If a choice of 1 is undemocratic, then so was the 2016 referendum.

Farage had a choice whether to vote for or against the candidate.
Voters in 2016 had a choice whether to vote for or against staying in the EU.

Both one choice.
During the referendum, there where two choices, the vote of the people was the end result.
in this case the people where asked to vote, but the end result is a candidate who only came forward after a closed door meeting, how on earth can you compare those two?
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
During the referendum, there where two choices, the vote of the people was the end result.
in this case the people where asked to vote, but the end result is a candidate who only came forward after a closed door meeting, how on earth can you compare those two?
If you want to word it like that, then this vote was also two choices: for or against Ursula von der Leyen.
The EU Parliament could have rejected the candidate by voting against.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
If you want to word it like that, then this vote was also two choices: for or against Ursula von der Leyen.
The EU Parliament could have rejected the candidate by voting against.
you're going to fast here, they also put a number off ''spitzencanidat'' members on the election roll. Just for laughs and giggles because none of them has actually been chosen. I think it is fundamentally wrong and misleading if you let people believe they have some influence only to show you sh*t on their opinions instead. That is what the EU has done here, again!
 

stowie

Guru
I understand that large companies ''ll go to an certain extent to prove these kind of statements as having a lobby in the eu makes them lazy. It also emboldens large companies at the cost of smaller and medium sized companies. Youtube can employ more then enough people to comply with all those silly content controlling rules. but would a startup let's call it ''smalltube'' just as easily?
There is a valid argument to be made about the influence big business can have on national and international policy making. I would cite the VW debacle with the EU as a case in point. The EU response was tepid at best due to the fact that VW is a rather important company in Europe.

It does work both ways though with legislation. If the EU implements laws around copyright and content ownership that was being discussed then YouTube would have big problems simply because of its size and the review mechanisms that are inherent to the platform. A startup might be able to incorporate the legislation into the core of its platform and have a significant advantage over the big guys. Facebook is another case in point. The platform wasn't set up with privacy or managing damaging / false / violent / exploitative content. Therefore its size, ethos and platform architecture make it more difficult for it to change and adapt. New platforms can (and are) challenging these large platforms by designing for the situation now instead of the situation as was when FB started.

None of this, however, is a justification for Brexit. If you think the EU gets lobbied wait until our national government are having to make tough decisions....

Surely not here you go a other example of why the EU is not working for normal people it does work great for big companies and failed politician's like ms von der Leyden, the succesor to Juncker that nobody knew or has voted for. In yet a other demonstration of ''the ever undemocratic union''
Ms Von Der Leyden was nominated by the council (elected heads of the EU nations) and voted for by the EU Parliament which is directly elected by us. Yes, it was an unseemly nomination, a bit of a compromise and the complaints are valid. It isn't restricted to the EU though. In fact the EU process is significantly more democratic and open to scrutiny than many appointments made nationally for international appointments. Do you know who represents us at WTO level? UN level? Ambassadorial level? Because I don't! And we don't get a vote on these people either. Nor do we vote directly for a government cabinet minister either. Or even directly for PM. Nationally we simply get to vote for our MP and the party he or she represents. The rest is either decided by party members or the party executive.

Again, the EU is a flawed organisation. I am actually rather EU sceptic and pretty critical of it. But replacing something which can be a bit shoot by something that is shaping up to be an utter clusterfark cannot be deemed to be progress.
 
you're going to fast here, they also put a number off ''spitzencanidat'' members on the election roll. Just for laughs and giggles because none of them has actually been chosen. I think it is fundamentally wrong and misleading if you let people believe they have some influence only to show you sh*t on their opinions instead. That is what the EU has done here, again!
Care to translate that into English as per forum rules.
 
U

User169

Guest
vd Leyen is the head of the EU civil service. In the UK that's not a position that has any democratic oversight whatsoever. I'd bet no-one on this thread could even name the vd Leyen equivalent.

Mark Sedwill to save the you the googling.
 
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