Examples of the EU's anti-democratic tendancies

OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Just like the Brexit vote that you've spent 22 pages trying, and so far, failing, to defend.:banghead:
I can't see how you think Brexit was undemocratric. One person, one vote. No rotten boroughs to obscure the result. Plenty of discussion beforehand of the merits/demerits. One simple straightforward referendum question, drafted by the Electoral Commission and accepted as the referendum question by 80% of MPs sitting at the time.
 
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Unfortunately that’s just another criticism, people can criticise as much they like but brexit needs a detailed real world plan containing the benefits as well as the costs & how to mitigate them. Are you suggesting the EU should copy the brexit party structure by becoming a company with an unelected head due to their being no members to vote for the leader and the unelected leader has complete unchallenged control over the whole party ?
No, I am suggesting the EU allow Europeans to be able to vote for their high officials, since they have so much power. Otherwise people will be able to say they're undemocratic.
 

Kajjal

Veteran
Location
Wheely World
I can't see how you think Brexit was undemocratric. One person, one vote. No rotten boroughs to obscure the result. Plenty of discussion beforehand of the merits/demerits. One simple straightforward referendum question, drafted by the Electoral Commission and accepted as the referendum question by 80% of MPs sitting at the time.
The key issue is no one defined what brexit meant. This creates mayhem as you end up with numerous versions from very soft to a no deal brexit. Which is what has lead to three years of going nowhere. The logical approach is to have a referendum to decide if to look at brexit and then once agreed a follow up referendum to choose the best from the deliverable options, any undefined or undeliverable options are simply removed.
 
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
vd Leyen is the head of the EU civil service. In the UK that's not a position that has any democratic oversight whatsoever. I'd bet no-one on this thread could even name the vd Leyen equivalent.

Mark Sedwill to save the you the googling.
No UK civil servant makes political speeches such as this. It amounts to a manifesto. Not that I disagree with much of it, although plenty of people would. If the new EU president is going to declare their manifesto, it would be nice if:

1) They declared it to everyone before they were appointed
2) Let people vote on it
 
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U

User169

Guest
No UK civil servant makes political speeches such as this. It amounts to a manifesto. Not that I disagree with much of it, although plenty of people would. If the new EU president is going to declare their manifesto, it would be nice if:

1) They declared it to everyone before they were appointed
2) Let people vote on it
Cool. Its good to know that at least one CC person knew of Mark Sedwill.
 
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Get this: although each EU member is required to sign up to the European Convention of Human Rights, the EU itself has not done so, although also required to by the Lisbon Treaty. The reason they have not is because the European Court of Justice believe it would restrict their autonomy.
 
Get this: although each EU member is required to sign up to the European Convention of Human Rights, the EU itself has not done so, although also required to by the Lisbon Treaty. The reason they have not is because the European Court of Justice believe it would restrict their autonomy.

Ehcr has nothing to do with what you stated. Got some reliable sources for that?
 
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cookiemonster

Legendary Member
Location
Hong Kong
I can't see how you think Brexit was undemocratric. One person, one vote. No rotten boroughs to obscure the result. Plenty of discussion beforehand of the merits/demerits. One simple straightforward referendum question, drafted by the Electoral Commission and accepted as the referendum question by 80% of MPs sitting at the time.
Get this: the vote was undemocratic. It was corrupt and many UK citizens, such as myself, were denied the vote. If the vote was legally binding, it would’ve been struck off by a judge. No mention of the sheer disaster that will befall the UK economy. Already the pound is tanking. No mention of the sheer racism. No mention that the UK is way less democratic than the EU. No mention of the lies, that you’re parroting, about the vote and the consequences. No mention of the 1.1 million missing votes handled by a company owned by Peter Lilly, who also campaigned in the referendum in defiance of electoral law.

All you’ve posted in 23 pages is unprovable.

So, any PROPER evidence of the undemocratic EU or are you happy to live in your Daily Mail inspired echo chamber.
 
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I can't see how you think Brexit was undemocratric. One person, one vote. No rotten boroughs to obscure the result. Plenty of discussion beforehand of the merits/demerits. One simple straightforward referendum question, drafted by the Electoral Commission and accepted as the referendum question by 80% of MPs sitting at the time.
I wasn't allowed to vote. Neither were a lot of other people. How is that democratic?

And that's before you get into the fraudulent campaigns which led the electoral commission to say the vote would be void if it were binding.

3.5 million EU citizens in the UK whose future depended on the vote were excluded.
A large portion of the 1.4 million British Nationals in the EU whose future depended on the vote were excluded too. Including me.

At a conservative guess about that means about 3 million people were excluded from a referendum that will affect us far sooner and more dramatically than everyone who could vote.

3 million excluded in a fraudulent referendum that was decided by just over a million votes.

If it wasn't for the flexibility of the German government our family could have been split because of a vote we were excluded from. EU nationals in the UK are still facing this possibility.

In what world can that be considered democratic?
 
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No UK civil servant makes political speeches such as this. It amounts to a manifesto. Not that I disagree with much of it, although plenty of people would. If the new EU president is going to declare their manifesto, it would be nice if:

1) They declared it to everyone before they were appointed
2) Let people vote on it
See also Brexit party Ltd, Tory leader...

As I said up thread, this is not an unusual way to select a president. Just because it isn't the British way doesn't make it undemocratic.

But then the British way is to have a head of state based on who their granny was, so we don't have room to talk...
 

Kajjal

Veteran
Location
Wheely World
No, I am suggesting the EU allow Europeans to be able to vote for their high officials, since they have so much power. Otherwise people will be able to say they're undemocratic.
They could but as you know they would be wrong. The democratically elected government representatives of the member states choose and vote on the high officials of the EU. This is another criticism which solves none of the issues Brexit creates.

Can you clearly define your preferred version of Brexit and it’s benefits to the UK overall ?
 

mudsticks

Veteran
I can't see how you think Brexit was undemocratric. One person, one vote. No rotten boroughs to obscure the result. Plenty of discussion beforehand of the merits/demerits. One simple straightforward referendum question, drafted by the Electoral Commission and accepted as the referendum question by 80% of MPs sitting at the time.
Well quite a few undemocratic issues really..
The simplistic, but seductive to the narrow minded, misinformation that was spread about pre the vote, springs to mind, as deeply problematic .

Spread about in papers such as the Mail, whose owners have many a vested interest in the tax dodging, and profiteering that leaving the EU will afford them, and their cronies. .

All that misleading guff on the side of the bus.

Farage and his loathsome 'rivers of migrants' propaganda, just pure xenophobia, if not outright racism.

The referendum was a horrible example of ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer.
The result if which can't be undone in 5 years when everyone finally realises it wasn't so smart.

How many people googled "what is the EU, and what does it do.. the day after the vote??

The ignorance was deafening.

I'd agree theres much in the way the EU is run that needs reform
How do we do that if we're outside?? .

Plus we get none of the protections, nor benefits of being part of a large trading block.
None of the free movement for living or working or education.

We're a tiny lump of rock stuck in the North Atlantic, we're not China, or the USA ffs..

They will have us as a light snack, even before breakfast, they'll barely have to chew.

As part of my small farm union work, I've been pondering, alongside many others the implications of Brexit, particularly on the agricultural sector. .

I've even written a rather long briefing paper on it, if you'd like some soporific reading material.

Wierdly Brexit might even benefit smaller scaled outfits such as mine, that don't get any EU dosh, anyway..

(A UK gov decision, that small farms weren't worth bothering with for administrative purposes) .


But I benefit in part because people are slightly panicking and going 'what will happen to food imports post Brexit?? No migrants to pick the stuff on bigger farms, no we've scared them ff with our xenophobic attitudes, no easy imports of food from the continent

So we'd better buy local maybe?

But looked at less selfishly, Brexit will massively disbenefits our food systems and agriculture.

Not jusr because of the loss of EU area payments to larger farms..
Those may or may not be replaced by a UK designed scheme.

But because it will make UK have much weaker trading position.

If farmers want to export to EU they will still (quire rightly) have to comply with EU regs on food production standards.

But there won't be frictionless trade.

Meanwhile, we will have to engage in trade agreements with USA, and accept much lower standards of food quality ( in terms of production, additives, welfare - chlorinated chicken etc) imported, which will undercut the stuff grown here, and drive down quality of food available.

Great, you might say.. Cheaper food!!

But food is already ridiculously cheap, relative to the cost of everything else, its become a race to the bottom, in terms of environmental, and nutrition standards. Look how healthy the American 'cheap food" diet is..


The fishing industry has been hit because the UK decided that selling off eu quota would be OK..
The UK sold it.. Not the EUs doing, .

Uk sold it, then there are omplaints about Spaniards and others fishing in our waters.
Well yes, we sold them the rights for dosh.. Derr

So many of the UKs 'problems' are blamed on the EU.

It's tosh.

As we will discover if we do Brexit, deal or no deal

Yes much, of the workings of the EU does need reform, and is even now in process of being reformed.

Particularly the CAP.. (Common Agricultural Policy)

EU regs around pesticides, and workers rights, and so forth help us all in many ways. - Food, air, and water quality, for example.

But still parts of the schemes to encourage better practice, and productivity, ecological safeguards are being rethought, in Europe.

We could have been part of that, had some say.

Now we get to stand on the sidelines, we will have no say in any of it, but still be under EU regs if we wish to trade with them.

Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot.

We've already spent millions on extra civil servants trying to prepare for Brexit, and that's just in defra, that will have been replicated in all other government departments.

Such a dumb move, on our part arrogant, and hubristic..

Like we were when we had an Empire and we stomped round the world, throwing our weight around telling other countries what to do, whilst nicking their stuff.

Now we whine about 'imigrants' 'taking our jobs' .. Or actually in fact massively supporting our NHS, agriculture, education, creating small businesses, and much else besides

Oh and btw there was never any restrictions on selling bendy cucs or whatever, some comic invented

More made up anti EU nonsense.. I've been selling them for years.

That was far more to do with supermarkets and their demands.

The Brexit vote was a 'democratic' victory of the right to be ignorant, and mess up our country for generations to come.

Orchestrated by vested interest who don't really give a flying feck for 'the hardworking ordinary person'
Or for true democracy.

Such an enormous waste of time and energy and money when there are so much more pressing, real problems that need sorting.
 
Well quite a few undemocratic issues really..
The simplistic, but seductive to the narrow minded, misinformation that was spread about pre the vote, springs to mind, as deeply problematic .

Spread about in papers such as the Mail, whose owners have many a vested interest in the tax dodging, and profiteering that leaving the EU will afford them, and their cronies. .

All that misleading guff on the side of the bus.

Farage and his loathsome 'rivers of migrants' propaganda, just pure xenophobia, if not outright racism.

The referendum was a horrible example of ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer.
The result if which can't be undone in 5 years when everyone finally realises it wasn't so smart.

How many people googled "what is the EU, and what does it do.. the day after the vote??

The ignorance was deafening.

I'd agree theres much in the way the EU is run that needs reform
How do we do that if we're outside?? .

Plus we get none of the protections, nor benefits of being part of a large trading block.
None of the free movement for living or working or education.

We're a tiny lump of rock stuck in the North Atlantic, we're not China, or the USA ffs..

They will have us as a light snack, even before breakfast, they'll barely have to chew.

As part of my small farm union work, I've been pondering, alongside many others the implications of Brexit, particularly on the agricultural sector. .

I've even written a rather long briefing paper on it, if you'd like some soporific reading material.

Wierdly Brexit might even benefit smaller scaled outfits such as mine, that don't get any EU dosh, anyway..

(A UK gov decision, that small farms weren't worth bothering with for administrative purposes) .


But I benefit in part because people are slightly panicking and going 'what will happen to food imports post Brexit?? No migrants to pick the stuff on bigger farms, no we've scared them ff with our xenophobic attitudes, no easy imports of food from the continent

So we'd better buy local maybe?

But looked at less selfishly, Brexit will massively disbenefits our food systems and agriculture.

Not jusr because of the loss of EU area payments to larger farms..
Those may or may not be replaced by a UK designed scheme.

But because it will make UK have much weaker trading position.

If farmers want to export to EU they will still (quire rightly) have to comply with EU regs on food production standards.

But there won't be frictionless trade.

Meanwhile, we will have to engage in trade agreements with USA, and accept much lower standards of food quality ( in terms of production, additives, welfare - chlorinated chicken etc) imported, which will undercut the stuff grown here, and drive down quality of food available.

Great, you might say.. Cheaper food!!

But food is already ridiculously cheap, relative to the cost of everything else, its become a race to the bottom, in terms of environmental, and nutrition standards. Look how healthy the American 'cheap food" diet is..


The fishing industry has been hit because the UK decided that selling off eu quota would be OK..
The UK sold it.. Not the EUs doing, .

Uk sold it, then there are omplaints about Spaniards and others fishing in our waters.
Well yes, we sold them the rights for dosh.. Derr

So many of the UKs 'problems' are blamed on the EU.

It's tosh.

As we will discover if we do Brexit, deal or no deal

Yes much, of the workings of the EU does need reform, and is even now in process of being reformed.

Particularly the CAP.. (Common Agricultural Policy)

EU regs around pesticides, and workers rights, and so forth help us all in many ways. - Food, air, and water quality, for example.

But still parts of the schemes to encourage better practice, and productivity, ecological safeguards are being rethought, in Europe.

We could have been part of that, had some say.

Now we get to stand on the sidelines, we will have no say in any of it, but still be under EU regs if we wish to trade with them.

Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot.

We've already spent millions on extra civil servants trying to prepare for Brexit, and that's just in defra, that will have been replicated in all other government departments.

Such a dumb move, on our part arrogant, and hubristic..

Like we were when we had an Empire and we stomped round the world, throwing our weight around telling other countries what to do, whilst nicking their stuff.

Now we whine about 'imigrants' 'taking our jobs' .. Or actually in fact massively supporting our NHS, agriculture, education, creating small businesses, and much else besides

Oh and btw there was never any restrictions on selling bendy cucs or whatever, some comic invented

More made up anti EU nonsense.. I've been selling them for years.

That was far more to do with supermarkets and their demands.

The Brexit vote was a 'democratic' victory of the right to be ignorant, and mess up our country for generations to come.

Orchestrated by vested interest who don't really give a flying feck for 'the hardworking ordinary person'
Or for true democracy.

Such an enormous waste of time and energy and money when there are so much more pressing, real problems that need sorting.
But apart from those issues (and 4m people being excluded) It was perfectly democratic @Yellow Fang, so it's all good.
 
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