Examples of the EU's anti-democratic tendancies

Discussion in 'News and Current Affairs' started by Yellow Fang, 30 Jun 2019.

  1. perplexed

    perplexed Guru

    Location:
    Sheffield
    Plus, the two co-chairs, Messers Johnson and Gove (I'm sure I've heard of them from somewhere...), voted the opposite way to each other on May's deal.

    Raab, the Brexit Secretary, voted against his own deal. The one he'd negotiated, ffs...

    Rees Mogg described May's Deal as worse than slavery one day and 'worse than staying in the EU'. Then around 24 hours later, with not a hint of shame, said he was minded to back May's Deal. Probably because he had a bit of a wobble and in that heady two or three day period, thought he would lose Brexit altogether. So a chief proponent of Brexit could be flexible about what it actually meant.

    It's worth noting that the headbangers in the Conservative party (ERG), aided and abetted by people like Hoey, have arguably done more to torpedo Brexit than the Remain side.

    We need to put to bed the notion that the binary question on the ballot paper on the Leave side was 'No Deal'. It wasn't for all sorts of reasons. Pre Referendum, the Leave side were promising all sorts of colours of Utopia:

    'Easiest Deal in History' (Fox, from memory)
    'The day we vote to leave, we can chose the path we want' (?Gove)
    'We hold all the cards' (?Gove again)
    'We're going to get a great deal, we're going to make a Titanic success of it' (Johnson)
    'Absolutley nobody is talking about leaving the customs union' (?Hannan)
    'We could be like Norway, they're rich, they're happy' (Farage)
    'They need us more than we need them' (weirdly often juxstaposed with 'they're bullying us' - well, which is it?)
    'The EU is a failed superstate which is falling apart, we're just the first to leave' (Again, often juxstaposed with 'they're forming an EU army)
    'We need to get out, we're losing our veto, we have to join schengen, they're making us join the Euro' (fake copy of the Lisbon treaty)
    'Lets give our NHS £350 million' (The infamous red bus)

    All of the above turned out to be slightly wide of the mark. But the above was the sales pitch. Pre Referendum, Brexit wasn't written down, because to do so would expose it for its weakness. Three years ago, Brexit could be Canada, Canada++, Norway, Norway++, CU etc etc - in otherwords, the 'Brexit' vote would split into numerous factions and would simply not beat Remain. So they asked a binary question to which there isn't a binary answer.

    Even if we assume, for example, Norway was the single option for Brexit in 2016, and had won and duly implemented.

    What happens then (with an eye to the notion of democracy)?

    Farage and Rees Mogg then quietly set about dismantling Norway in the background. We've seen that now only 'No Deal' is pure enough for them. They've shown their colours. So I'm pretty sure they're not overly concerned with democracy.


    I think it was @Mugshot who posted a graph which tracked chatter around 'No Deal' over the past 3 years. If I recall, 'No Deal' barely registered until about 6 months ago... So it can't be really what people voted for. If anything, it was Remainers mentioning it, but in the 'old days' No Deal was called 'Project Fear'.

    Also, No Deal is a bit of a mis-nomer. Should we leave on 31st October with 'No Deal', then even this won't last simply because whatever happens afterwards, we will end up with some sort of Deal with the EU. And we'll have to make this deal when weak and vulnerable. With the USA circling like a hawk.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jul 2019
  2. Mugshot

    Mugshot Cracking a solo.

    Keep your friends close and your graphs closer;

    D5AdPbUXoAABv72.jpg large.jpg
     
  3. perplexed

    perplexed Guru

    Location:
    Sheffield
    Thanks!
     
    Andy in Germany and Mugshot like this.
  4. roubaixtuesday

    roubaixtuesday Über Member

    Yup.

    There is no such thing as "no-deal". Only "comprehensive deal agreed in orderly fashion with more powerful partner" or "piecemeal deal imposed under duress by more powerful opponent"
     
    C R and perplexed like this.
  5. OP
    OP
    Yellow Fang

    Yellow Fang Guru

    Location:
    Reading
    Oh yes, the people who voted for Brexit were too stupid to vote argument.
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Yellow Fang

    Yellow Fang Guru

    Location:
    Reading
    I am drinking a can of Holsten Pils right now, thank you. Here's a link.

    "Referring to Protocol No 8 relating to Article 6(2) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU), the Court recalled that the accession agreement had to fulfil certain conditions to make provision for preserving the specific characteristics of the EU and of EU law, as well as to ensure that accession does not affect EU institutions’ competences or the powers. In that context, the Court concluded that accession was liable to upset the underlying balance of the EU and undermine the autonomy of EU law."
     
  7. I wouldn't say it was stupidity. Propaganda over a long time is a very powerful tool.

    And what about the fraudulent campaigns?

    Or this?

     
    Last edited: 18 Jul 2019
    perplexed likes this.
  8. mudsticks

    mudsticks Über Member

    I didn't say stupid.

    As Andy infers - it was falling for misinformation, false promises and half truths, supplied through vehicles such as the Mail, whose proprietors, and their chums have a vested interest in Brexit.

    There are many people in this country desperate for change, who have been disadvantaged by our governments austerity measures, and by their skimming off of the cream for the already well off. .

    But these problems are easily foisted onto 'immigrants' , or 'the EU'
    Its classic blame shifting.

    Like I said, the EU and the way it's run isn't perfect, no institution is.

    So let's stay in, and be part of the needed reforms.

    But all this 'getting our country back' nonsense is just jingoistic hogwash.

    Our country is run and 'owned' by a bunch of priveleged public schoolboys, and their unfettered capitalist chancer mates, who will do anything necessary to dodge a tax, or sell off a public service to their friends.

    They are the parasites on the rest of us.

    Do you really think the likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg, and Farage are 'men of the people' who give a flying feck about anyone who is struggling to make ends meet ??

    They just love power, and money, and the sound of their own priveleged voices, end of.

    Lots of EU money was (still is) going to less favoured areas, such as Wales, Cornwall, and the North East to boost jobs, and services in those areas.

    The fact that some of those places were persuaded to vote leave, still mystifies me to this day.

    But I guess that just goes to show what an effective propaganda effort it all was.

    It's tricky getting your head round how the EU works, and mistakes, and wastage have definitely occurred in its operation.

    So let's stay in and be part of the reform.

    I've been involved in some EU farmer cooperation projects myself (not paid - in case you thought I had a vested interest) it is complicated, getting all these different peoples to work together, but that is also part of the good that the EU does - bringing people together - building understanding.

    But it was foolhardy in the extreme to suggest we could just break free from legally binding agreements, walk away from financial commitments.


    With no cost or consequences.

    As if it was some hastily arranged marriage that we were just a bit tired of.
     
    Tanis8472, Bromptonaut, benb and 3 others like this.
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