Examples of the EU's anti-democratic tendancies

perplexed

Guru
Location
Sheffield
Don't forget Vote Leave broke the law.
Plus, the two co-chairs, Messers Johnson and Gove (I'm sure I've heard of them from somewhere...), voted the opposite way to each other on May's deal.

Raab, the Brexit Secretary, voted against his own deal. The one he'd negotiated, ffs...

Rees Mogg described May's Deal as worse than slavery one day and 'worse than staying in the EU'. Then around 24 hours later, with not a hint of shame, said he was minded to back May's Deal. Probably because he had a bit of a wobble and in that heady two or three day period, thought he would lose Brexit altogether. So a chief proponent of Brexit could be flexible about what it actually meant.

It's worth noting that the headbangers in the Conservative party (ERG), aided and abetted by people like Hoey, have arguably done more to torpedo Brexit than the Remain side.

We need to put to bed the notion that the binary question on the ballot paper on the Leave side was 'No Deal'. It wasn't for all sorts of reasons. Pre Referendum, the Leave side were promising all sorts of colours of Utopia:

'Easiest Deal in History' (Fox, from memory)
'The day we vote to leave, we can chose the path we want' (?Gove)
'We hold all the cards' (?Gove again)
'We're going to get a great deal, we're going to make a Titanic success of it' (Johnson)
'Absolutley nobody is talking about leaving the customs union' (?Hannan)
'We could be like Norway, they're rich, they're happy' (Farage)
'They need us more than we need them' (weirdly often juxstaposed with 'they're bullying us' - well, which is it?)
'The EU is a failed superstate which is falling apart, we're just the first to leave' (Again, often juxstaposed with 'they're forming an EU army)
'We need to get out, we're losing our veto, we have to join schengen, they're making us join the Euro' (fake copy of the Lisbon treaty)
'Lets give our NHS £350 million' (The infamous red bus)

All of the above turned out to be slightly wide of the mark. But the above was the sales pitch. Pre Referendum, Brexit wasn't written down, because to do so would expose it for its weakness. Three years ago, Brexit could be Canada, Canada++, Norway, Norway++, CU etc etc - in otherwords, the 'Brexit' vote would split into numerous factions and would simply not beat Remain. So they asked a binary question to which there isn't a binary answer.

Even if we assume, for example, Norway was the single option for Brexit in 2016, and had won and duly implemented.

What happens then (with an eye to the notion of democracy)?

Farage and Rees Mogg then quietly set about dismantling Norway in the background. We've seen that now only 'No Deal' is pure enough for them. They've shown their colours. So I'm pretty sure they're not overly concerned with democracy.


I think it was @Mugshot who posted a graph which tracked chatter around 'No Deal' over the past 3 years. If I recall, 'No Deal' barely registered until about 6 months ago... So it can't be really what people voted for. If anything, it was Remainers mentioning it, but in the 'old days' No Deal was called 'Project Fear'.

Also, No Deal is a bit of a mis-nomer. Should we leave on 31st October with 'No Deal', then even this won't last simply because whatever happens afterwards, we will end up with some sort of Deal with the EU. And we'll have to make this deal when weak and vulnerable. With the USA circling like a hawk.
 
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Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
I think it was @Mugshot who posted a graph which tracked chatter around 'No Deal' over the past 3 years. If I recall, 'No Deal' barely registered until about 6 months ago... So it can't be really what people voted for. If anything, it was Remainers, but No Deal was 'Project Fear'.
Keep your friends close and your graphs closer;

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roubaixtuesday

Über Member
Also, No Deal is a bit of a mis-nomer. Should we leave on 31st October with 'No Deal', then even this won't last simply because whatever happens afterwards, we will end up with some sort of Deal with the EU.
Yup.

There is no such thing as "no-deal". Only "comprehensive deal agreed in orderly fashion with more powerful partner" or "piecemeal deal imposed under duress by more powerful opponent"
 
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Well quite a few undemocratic issues really..
The simplistic, but seductive to the narrow minded, misinformation that was spread about pre the vote, springs to mind, as deeply problematic .

Spread about in papers such as the Mail, whose owners have many a vested interest in the tax dodging, and profiteering that leaving the EU will afford them, and their cronies. .

All that misleading guff on the side of the bus.

Farage and his loathsome 'rivers of migrants' propaganda, just pure xenophobia, if not outright racism.

The referendum was a horrible example of ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer.
The result if which can't be undone in 5 years when everyone finally realises it wasn't so smart.

How many people googled "what is the EU, and what does it do.. the day after the vote??

The ignorance was deafening.

I'd agree theres much in the way the EU is run that needs reform
How do we do that if we're outside?? .

Plus we get none of the protections, nor benefits of being part of a large trading block.
None of the free movement for living or working or education.

We're a tiny lump of rock stuck in the North Atlantic, we're not China, or the USA ffs..

They will have us as a light snack, even before breakfast, they'll barely have to chew.

As part of my small farm union work, I've been pondering, alongside many others the implications of Brexit, particularly on the agricultural sector. .

I've even written a rather long briefing paper on it, if you'd like some soporific reading material.

Wierdly Brexit might even benefit smaller scaled outfits such as mine, that don't get any EU dosh, anyway..

(A UK gov decision, that small farms weren't worth bothering with for administrative purposes) .


But I benefit in part because people are slightly panicking and going 'what will happen to food imports post Brexit?? No migrants to pick the stuff on bigger farms, no we've scared them ff with our xenophobic attitudes, no easy imports of food from the continent

So we'd better buy local maybe?

But looked at less selfishly, Brexit will massively disbenefits our food systems and agriculture.

Not jusr because of the loss of EU area payments to larger farms..
Those may or may not be replaced by a UK designed scheme.

But because it will make UK have much weaker trading position.

If farmers want to export to EU they will still (quire rightly) have to comply with EU regs on food production standards.

But there won't be frictionless trade.

Meanwhile, we will have to engage in trade agreements with USA, and accept much lower standards of food quality ( in terms of production, additives, welfare - chlorinated chicken etc) imported, which will undercut the stuff grown here, and drive down quality of food available.

Great, you might say.. Cheaper food!!

But food is already ridiculously cheap, relative to the cost of everything else, its become a race to the bottom, in terms of environmental, and nutrition standards. Look how healthy the American 'cheap food" diet is..


The fishing industry has been hit because the UK decided that selling off eu quota would be OK..
The UK sold it.. Not the EUs doing, .

Uk sold it, then there are omplaints about Spaniards and others fishing in our waters.
Well yes, we sold them the rights for dosh.. Derr

So many of the UKs 'problems' are blamed on the EU.

It's tosh.

As we will discover if we do Brexit, deal or no deal

Yes much, of the workings of the EU does need reform, and is even now in process of being reformed.

Particularly the CAP.. (Common Agricultural Policy)

EU regs around pesticides, and workers rights, and so forth help us all in many ways. - Food, air, and water quality, for example.

But still parts of the schemes to encourage better practice, and productivity, ecological safeguards are being rethought, in Europe.

We could have been part of that, had some say.

Now we get to stand on the sidelines, we will have no say in any of it, but still be under EU regs if we wish to trade with them.

Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot.

We've already spent millions on extra civil servants trying to prepare for Brexit, and that's just in defra, that will have been replicated in all other government departments.

Such a dumb move, on our part arrogant, and hubristic..

Like we were when we had an Empire and we stomped round the world, throwing our weight around telling other countries what to do, whilst nicking their stuff.

Now we whine about 'imigrants' 'taking our jobs' .. Or actually in fact massively supporting our NHS, agriculture, education, creating small businesses, and much else besides

Oh and btw there was never any restrictions on selling bendy cucs or whatever, some comic invented

More made up anti EU nonsense.. I've been selling them for years.

That was far more to do with supermarkets and their demands.

The Brexit vote was a 'democratic' victory of the right to be ignorant, and mess up our country for generations to come.

Orchestrated by vested interest who don't really give a flying feck for 'the hardworking ordinary person'
Or for true democracy.

Such an enormous waste of time and energy and money when there are so much more pressing, real problems that need sorting.
Oh yes, the people who voted for Brexit were too stupid to vote argument.
 
OP
Yellow Fang

Yellow Fang

Legendary Member
Location
Reading
Got some reliable sources for that?
I am drinking a can of Holsten Pils right now, thank you. Here's a link.

"Referring to Protocol No 8 relating to Article 6(2) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU), the Court recalled that the accession agreement had to fulfil certain conditions to make provision for preserving the specific characteristics of the EU and of EU law, as well as to ensure that accession does not affect EU institutions’ competences or the powers. In that context, the Court concluded that accession was liable to upset the underlying balance of the EU and undermine the autonomy of EU law."
 
Oh yes, the people who voted for Brexit were too stupid to vote argument.
I wouldn't say it was stupidity. Propaganda over a long time is a very powerful tool.

And what about the fraudulent campaigns?

Or this?

I wasn't allowed to vote. Neither were a lot of other people. How is that democratic?

And that's before you get into the fraudulent campaigns which led the electoral commission to say the vote would be void if it were binding.

3.5 million EU citizens in the UK whose future depended on the vote were excluded.
A large portion of the 1.4 million British Nationals in the EU whose future depended on the vote were excluded too. Including me.

At a conservative guess about that means about 3 million people were excluded from a referendum that will affect us far sooner and more dramatically than everyone who could vote.

3 million excluded in a fraudulent referendum that was decided by just over a million votes.

If it wasn't for the flexibility of the German government our family could have been split because of a vote we were excluded from. EU nationals in the UK are still facing this possibility.

In what world can that be considered democratic?
 
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mudsticks

Veteran
Oh yes, the people who voted for Brexit were too stupid to vote argument.
I didn't say stupid.

As Andy infers - it was falling for misinformation, false promises and half truths, supplied through vehicles such as the Mail, whose proprietors, and their chums have a vested interest in Brexit.

There are many people in this country desperate for change, who have been disadvantaged by our governments austerity measures, and by their skimming off of the cream for the already well off. .

But these problems are easily foisted onto 'immigrants' , or 'the EU'
Its classic blame shifting.

Like I said, the EU and the way it's run isn't perfect, no institution is.

So let's stay in, and be part of the needed reforms.

But all this 'getting our country back' nonsense is just jingoistic hogwash.

Our country is run and 'owned' by a bunch of priveleged public schoolboys, and their unfettered capitalist chancer mates, who will do anything necessary to dodge a tax, or sell off a public service to their friends.

They are the parasites on the rest of us.

Do you really think the likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg, and Farage are 'men of the people' who give a flying feck about anyone who is struggling to make ends meet ??

They just love power, and money, and the sound of their own priveleged voices, end of.

Lots of EU money was (still is) going to less favoured areas, such as Wales, Cornwall, and the North East to boost jobs, and services in those areas.

The fact that some of those places were persuaded to vote leave, still mystifies me to this day.

But I guess that just goes to show what an effective propaganda effort it all was.

It's tricky getting your head round how the EU works, and mistakes, and wastage have definitely occurred in its operation.

So let's stay in and be part of the reform.

I've been involved in some EU farmer cooperation projects myself (not paid - in case you thought I had a vested interest) it is complicated, getting all these different peoples to work together, but that is also part of the good that the EU does - bringing people together - building understanding.

But it was foolhardy in the extreme to suggest we could just break free from legally binding agreements, walk away from financial commitments.


With no cost or consequences.

As if it was some hastily arranged marriage that we were just a bit tired of.
 
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