Jenny Jones #curfewformen

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
I agree with some of your points but I'd say socialisation plays a bigger role than hormones. It's also due to your brain not maturing fully until you are 25 and thus young people having poor impulse control.

Agreed that there are conflicts between how boys are expected to act and what life is actually like, which causes tension and aggression in some of them. But again this is how we are socialising our kids - our society is awash with porn and popular culture that encourages all kids to aspire to stuff they are never going to attain. Which is why I have said several times that we need a cultural shift in attitudes - of all of us, because this culture isn't healthy for boys and young men either.

I know you aren't saying hormones = 'Boys will be boys' as an excuse for violence or sex crimes, but it's still a view some people hold that these things are inevitable, rather than a behavioural issue that can be addressed if we have the will to do so.
It's insulting also to men who can 'control themselves' to suggest its not possible.

It's perfectly possible, the evidence is there.

It's just do we socialise towards it.?
Do we expect it..


Or keep on glorifying violence.?
And suggesting its somehow, alright, or inevitable.

Well society will always be set up in certain ways because only women can provide the biology of pregnancy and very early child care that human reproduction requires. But there's a huge difference in the need for that function and the massive imbalance we have between the sexes in much of the world. Most aspects of traditional gender roles are just social constructs though and just persist through regressive stereotypes surely.

I don't think looking to nature as a model for the human world is helpful either. Chimps are cannibals on occasion but noone thinks that's something that's acceptable in human society.
Exactly, most of it is cultural or social.
I was pregnant gave birth to. and bf my kids for several years apiece.

The rest of the parenting is done equally well by either parent.
And ime done better, and provides better role modelling if shared more equitably.

As ever the Scandilands seem to be quite good at this.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
In all seriousness @Joey Shabadoo , has the outpouring of womens' experience of harassment and violence associated with recent events made no impression on you?
If it has had an impact on you, what was that?

Could you describe it?
I'll put my hand up for that one.

The posting of womens' experience of harassment and violence on here made very little impression on me because none of it came as any surprise.

That's partly because I've spent nearly every working day for 25+ years knocking around police and the criminal courts, but I am surprised it would be surprising to any mature adult, male or female, whatever their lived experience.
 
OP
R

roubaixtuesday

Veteran
I'll put my hand up for that one.

The posting of womens' experience of harassment and violence on here made very little impression on me because none of it came as any surprise.

That's partly because I've spent nearly every working day for 25+ years knocking around police and the criminal courts, but I am surprised it would be surprising to any mature adult, male or female, whatever their lived experience.
Thanks Paley.

Why do you think so many women have shared their own stories for the first time openly now?

Did hearing our reading these impact you at all?

A particularly well written example follows, but I could have chosen from thousands.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...-ever-hurt-me-not-really-i-lie-hadley-freeman
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
In all seriousness @Joey Shabadoo , has the outpouring of womens' experience of harassment and violence associated with recent events made no impression on you?
If it has had an impact on you, what was that?

Could you describe it?
There has been a lot of good information on this thread but nothing particularly new or original. I've discussed some of the points with my wife, my sister and my mother and I really don't think you want to hear their answers. When the message put out by internet strangers is completely at odds with that of women I know in real life I know who I'll be listening to ^_^

I imagine the thread has had the same effect on other men reading too.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Thanks Paley.

Why do you think so many women have shared their own stories for the first time openly now?

Did hearing our reading these impact you at all?

A particularly well written example follows, but I could have chosen from thousands.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...-ever-hurt-me-not-really-i-lie-hadley-freeman
I am saddened individually, but having heard so many desperate stories in detail in the courts you have to develop a coping mechanism.

Which doesn't mean I don't feel for any victim, in fact quite the reverse, because as you know I would happily punish any perpetrator severely.

It also frustrates and annoys me that much of the conduct is barely criminal, so outside the ambit of the police and courts.

It's the constant drip-drip of relatively low level conduct that drags us all down.
 
There has been a lot of good information on this thread but nothing particularly new or original. I've discussed some of the points with my wife, my sister and my mother and I really don't think you want to hear their answers. When the message put out by internet strangers is completely at odds with that of women I know in real life I know who I'll be listening to ^_^

I imagine the thread has had the same effect on other men reading too.
Most of the women I know would cringe at some of the female views expressed on this thread. I've said previously, I was raised in a very matriarchal household and in an area where a fair proportion of the men worked away for periods on end, leaving the females to do the rest, means there are a lot of independent ladies round here. I can't think of any men that have an issue with it.
 

Bromptonaut

Rohan Man
Location
Bugbrooke UK
As with Pale Rider I've spent a career in various courts and tribunals starting at age 19 in a County Court. Having been brought up in a 'posh' suburb of Leeds where DV happened elsewhere seeing affidavits and hearing evidence in court was an eye opener.
 

AuroraSaab

Über Member
This thread's a scream.

It's like buses knocking down 10 women and 90 men a year.
"Wah Wah, we have to stop buses knocking down women"
"but they knock down 100 people..."
"Wah Wah, but the women"
"Why do buses knock down so many people?"
#curfewforbuses
If 50% of the bus drivers are men, and 50% are women, but the ones knocking over 'people' are 98% male bus drivers, doesn't that mean there is a problem with male bus drivers?

Also, just being out going about your business isn't the same as walking into the road without looking and the bus couldn't avoid you. Being raped or assaulted doesn't occur by accident. It's just victim blaming to suggest so. A better analogy would be that you're minding your own business when a bus driver takes it upon himself to swerve off the road and hit you. And that bus driver will usually be male.

The logical conclusion of your post is that maybe men shouldn't be allowed out to drive buses.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Most of the women I know would cringe at some of the female views expressed on this thread. I've said previously, I was raised in a very matriarchal household and in an area where a fair proportion of the men worked away for periods on end, leaving the females to do the rest, means there are a lot of independent ladies round here. I can't think of any men that have an issue with it.
The experiences or thoughts of the women around you, do not comprise the thoughts or experiences of the entirety of womanhood though do they?

Just as neither do the thoughts of Joeys close relatives the same.

Nor even do my personal thoughts or feelings, although i have spoken very candidly with many hundreds of women on these matters, over my lifetime.

The large majority of whom have experienced some form of abuse at the hand of men.

And many of who don't atm have the confidence to go about as free from fear as i do.

I am saddened individually, but having heard so many desperate stories in detail in the courts you have to develop a coping mechanism.

Which doesn't mean I don't feel for any victim, in fact quite the reverse, because as you know I would happily punish any perpetrator severely.

It also frustrates and annoys me that much of the conduct is barely criminal, so outside the ambit of the police and courts.

It's the constant drip-drip of relatively low level conduct that drags us all down
.
It may well be as you say that much of the conduct is barely criminal - but that doesn't mean to say it isn't highly antisocial though, and disabling to womens lives in some way.

The low level conduct does as you say drag us all down - but it particularly drags women down - doubly unfair when women were already starting from a position of disadvantage.

If 50% of the bus drivers are men, and 50% are women, but the ones knocking over 'people' are 98% male bus drivers, doesn't that mean there is a problem with male bus drivers?

Also, just being out going about your business isn't the same as walking into the road without looking and the bus couldn't avoid you. Being raped or assaulted doesn't occur by accident. It's just victim blaming to suggest so. A better analogy would be that you're minding your own business when a bus driver takes it upon himself to swerve off the road and hit you. And that bus driver will usually be male.

The logical conclusion of your post is that maybe men shouldn't be allowed out to drive buses.
Exactly.

There seem to be roughly two camps here.

One that knows and believes that men can behave an awful lot better - as many already do - they have choices - free will even to do better - and they also aspire to raise boys and influence their peers to that end.

And another camp who either think this behaviour is acceptable - that this many women can expect to get harmed routinely -
and there's really not much we can do about it - women being harmed by men at this rate is inevitable.

I'm really believing and hoping that there are more in the first camp, than the second, its just that the first lot are not so vocal..

They're probably out doing good stuff, right now in fact.
 
The experiences or thoughts of the women around you, do not comprise the thoughts or experiences of the entirety of womanhood though do they?

There seem to be roughly two camps here.

One that knows and believes that men can behave an awful lot better - as many already do - they have choices - free will even to do better - and they also aspire to raise boys and influence their peers to that end.

And another camp who either think this behaviour is acceptable - that this many women can expect to get harmed routinely -
and there's really not much we can do about it - women being harmed by men at this rate is inevitable.
I never claimed they did, I simply accept that there are alternative versions to the ones on here, that the females I know would not be supportive of.

There are more than those two camps. There is a camp that accepts that violence occurs, and accepts that it needs challenging. Personally, I feel that is best done holistically, looking into as many causes and situations as possible, to help the bigger number of people.

I'm not sure why that seems to be so provocative.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
I never claimed they did, I simply accept that there are alternative versions to the ones on here, that the females I know would not be supportive of.

There are more than those two camps. There is a camp that accepts that violence occurs, and accepts that it needs challenging. Personally, I feel that is best done holistically, looking into as many causes and situations as possible, to help the bigger number of people.

I'm not sure why that seems to be so provocative.
Yes in my experience women all have slightly differing viewpoints and experiences compared with each other - rather as if they are individual human beings..

And many different viewponts have also been aired here as well - so it is inaccurate to suggest that just because women you know wouldn't support those aired here, that they are somehow inaccurate .

Your suggestion isn't particularly provocative - but i'd say that the content of many of your posts has been.

The personal feelings of just one poster are just that.

Statistical evidence however does show, that the vast majority of violence done against women is done by men, its inescapable fact - unless one is going to fabricate numbers.

Therefore it seems reasonable to ask what is it in particular about the attitudes and or behaviours of those abusive men, or the society in which they are raised and live, that needs to change.?

I've got my ideas on that, have shared some here - have even put them into practice in my life - others may have their methods.
 
it is inaccurate to suggest that just because women you know wouldn't support those aired here, that they are somehow inaccurate .

Your suggestion isn't particularly provocative - but i'd say that the content of many of your posts has been.

The personal feelings of just one poster are just that.

Statistical evidence however does show, that the vast majority of violence done against women is done by men, its inescapable fact - unless one is going to fabricate numbers.

Therefore it seems reasonable to ask what is it in particular about the attitudes and or behaviours of those abusive men, or the society in which they are raised and live, that needs to change.?

I've got my ideas on that, have shared some here - have even put them into practice in my life - others may have their methods.
I never said they were inaccurate.

The figures have been debated in other arenas, and are not all as hard and fast as portrayed, however, it changes nothing of my position, that the most appropriate and effective way of tackling the issues is holistically, and gaining as full an understanding of the issues as possible.

If people are provoked by my responses, that's not altogether a bad thing, as long as they actually consider the content, rather than feeling slighted and inclined to a knee jerk emotional response. I think it's fair to say that I've been far more measured in my responses, than some of the replies I've had deserve. In other arenas a fair few of them could be deemed as harassment and bullying.
 
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Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
Earlier on the thread, wolf whistling was described as a bad thing and part of the sexual harassment women routinely face. Except the women I know laughed at the idea this was a bad thing. Further, I then provided links and data showing that 56% of women find wolf whistling to be "harmless fun". Even after this was posted, the same contributors continued with their assertion that wolf whistles are sexual assault.

Once again -

New YouGov research finds that the majority (56%) of Britons consider wolf-whistling to be “a compliment and just a bit of harmless fun.” This is more than twice the proportion who consider it to be “sexist and completely unacceptable” (23%). A further 21% of Brits don’t know either way.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...whistling-compliment-and-just-bit-harmless-fu

So on that basis it's probably fair to say that the loudest female voices on this thread represent a minority female opinion.
 
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