Killing them softly

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Uhuh, this is what us organic farmers have been banging on about for many decades.

But we're the crazy ones right..??
 

classic33

Legendary Member
If slurry from a cattle shed is used instead, it's not organic.

Silage* fed to cattle results in non organic slurry. Overlooked if you have the correct piece of paperwork.

*Organic silage is available, but isn't cheap.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
If slurry from a cattle shed is used instead, it's not organic.

Silage* fed to cattle results in non organic slurry. Overlooked if you have the correct piece of paperwork.

*Organic silage is available, but isn't cheap.
This isn't so much about what does or doesn't constitute 'organic' under certification schemes though.

It's a whole farm / agriculture system that we're looking at.
Treating soil, right, using methodologies that don't require us to use chemical warfare in the first place.

It's a nonsense that farmers should have to pay more to join a scheme to say they're not using things like agrochemicals.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Them organic farmers - not putting nicotine in their food - complete loonies...
In the summertime my little farm is humming with insect life.

They're all battling their 'mini' wars out between themselves, above and below ground.. It's deafening :rolleyes:

I feel no need to go on with chemical warfare - that would kick it all out of balance anyway.

The only insect I ever have trouble with is the cabbage white butterfly, whose caterpillars can devastate a brassica crop.

But I just use nets.

And the butterflies feed the swallows that reside here every summer.
 

classic33

Legendary Member
This isn't so much about what does or doesn't constitute 'organic' under certification schemes though.

It's a whole farm / agriculture system that we're looking at.
Treating soil, right, using methodologies that don't require us to use chemical warfare in the first place.

It's a nonsense that farmers should have to pay more to join a scheme to say they're not using things like agrochemicals.
You mean go back to the three field system?

And it's a system that you can sign into, to prove that you're doing things their way. Not always the right way.

The annual hedge clipping being a good example. Reach a certain date, and nature goes out the window. Lose the hedgerows which wildlife require to survive.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
You mean go back to the three field system?

And it's a system that you can sign into, to prove that you're doing things their way. Not always the right way.

The annual hedge clipping being a good example. Reach a certain date, and nature goes out the window. Lose the hedgerows which wildlife require to survive.
Well I've got a six year rotation, and a lot of trees, an stuff to harbour pest predators.

It works, it's highly productive.
But I'm a chemical companies nightmare.

There's nothing they can sell me..
 

oldworld

Senior Member
Here in France I think a farm can claim being organic if pesticides and weedkillers aren't used for three years.
I wonder how they arrive at this period? I'd think soil type and terrain would play a big part?
There is a growing (pun) market for all things 'Bio'.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
What I found out recently, other insects pollinate as much as bees, yet most of us when given a choice would gladly eradicate mosquitoes or flies
Yup hover flies, beetles and all sorts of other mini beasties do a fantastic job at this.

And are also highly sensitive to toxic substances.

Plus, if we kill off the bugs, there's less to feed the birds, and so forth up the food chain.

This isn't new news of course, ecologists have been warning of the dire consequences of pesticide and herbicide usage on life both above and below ground for decades.

And in our water, and air.

Life systems, and resources upon which we all ultimately depend.

It's not rocket science.. In fact it's far more complicated and important than that.

Man's huge egotistical belief that he can place himself above and apart from living ecosystems, and live well, or even live at all in the long term is the problem.

Not suggesting we don't use science, far from it, it just needs to be better science directed well, at understanding natural systems and how they work, particularly soil science.

Not using whizz bang, short term, kill everything chemical cosh..

That's clearly not OK in any way shape or form.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Here in France I think a farm can claim being organic if pesticides and weedkillers aren't used for three years.
I wonder how they arrive at this period? I'd think soil type and terrain would play a big part?
There is a growing (pun) market for all things 'Bio'.

Three year conversion period to organic is fairly standard here too.

With regular ongoing yearly inspections.
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55102891

Interested to see @mudsticks take on this.

England's countryside will radically change after the Brexit transition period, the government has confirmed.
There will be more trees, meadows and wetlands - and fewer sheep and cows as controversial EU farm subsidies are phased out.
The new system, named Environmental Land Management (ELM), will pay farmers if they prevent floods, plant woods and help wildlife.

Ministers say the EU policy was morally wrong, because it paid the biggest government subsidies to the richest farmers. A billionaire Saudi was even subsidised to breed racehorses.
The changeover will mean upheaval for farmers, and some may be unwilling or unable to adjust. Ministers have confirmed a lump-sum payment for those who decide they want to retire "with dignity".
A good thing?
A bad thing?
Or Tories - grrrrr?
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55102891

Interested to see @mudsticks take on this.



A good thing?
A bad thing?
Or Tories - grrrrr?
Ha, many of those receiving the largest payouts of unjust amounts of money are (or normally would be) sitting in the House of Lords.

Interesting isn't it how they reference a Saudi Racehorse owner as the 'wrong un'

Not that I'd support that either



Yours truly been part of a group lobbying for better treatment and support for farmers better, more ecological, and socially just food and farming systems after brexit.

We even stopped the traffic on Westminster Bridge with a shiny John Deere.

At another point we set up a massive lunch outside defra offices demanding a 'place at the table' in negotiations.

We got one ..

Ironically under Gove.
And have since then been part of helping to design this Elms system.

I've even had a fact finding defra delegation come to my farm

Their take away being "We didn't know you could do it like this, and be commercially viable*"

We will see, it's complicated.

The lump sum for farmers exiting is controversial for many reasons.

Depends on what happens to that land.. Create new County farms for new entrants.?? Yes great.
Allow it to become part of enormous mega farms with a few wildflower strips and unsuitable tree planting schemes?

Not so much.

Reducing numbers of livestock isn't a panacea in itself, what kind of stock and where??

The trouble is politicians just like anyone else struggles to ggrasp the complexity of this stuff.

Farming, ecology, climate change food security, the food system itself, tackling food poverty, land access, and so forth are inextricably linked.

Thinking about all these things, all at once is so far removed from the usual departmental silo thinking, that they are struggling to grasp it all at once.

Europe are also in the process of redesigning the Cap recognising all these things.
We could have been part of that.

Anyhoo I've scribed at great length on all this on the Brexit thread and elsewhere.

I'd better get up and go practice what I preach.

560955


Just goes to show how misleading a picture can be.

The plod was actually being very friendly, we were having a laugh, but it looks like he's ticking me off..
 
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