London-centric: motorbikes in bus lanes

[Rhythm Thief]

Isn't it time to acknowledge that you two are never going to agree on this and put it to bed? Or at least conduct the thread via PM or something.

 

[LLB]

The bloke hasn't stated a fact, he's given his opinion. But that doesn't matter anyway, because the biker had a safer alternative option -to move into the outside lane.

You need to show how it would have been more dangerous to change lanes. I've displayed, using the clip and timings, how the biker would have had more room behind him, with a similar speed following car, than the inside lane. The traffic in the outside lane is not travelling at a much faster pace.

There is at least a two second gap between the car that hit the bike and the next car in the outside lane. That's factual. The polo from the hard shoulder got up to speed in the same amount of space as the bike would have had.
And bikes can accelerate more quickly you know.

You need to support your claim by criticising my post linf and offer an alternative based on what we can see, not just repeating that you think it is that way with no evidence.

You're accepting now that the biker should have made the correct observations before changing position then?

If the biker knew the car behind him was that close and fast then he wouldn't have 'dived across' its path. He didn't know. Because he didn't look behind him. Do you ride your bike in oblivion to what is behind you? I don't.

A life saver wouldn't have saved him as he was already in the cars path so this line is irrelevant in this case - a car is 3 times the width of a motorcycle and was dominating the width of the lane by its size. If the bike hadn't been there, the passat would have most likely shunted the car in front given the excess speed at which it was traveling and the fact that it wasn't paying attention.

Your assertions for any alternative action wouldn't have saved the biker as the car was already on top of the bike when they came into frame.

If the bike was traveling at 20mph as asserted, then that would be approx 30 ft per second, The speed limit on a dual carriageway was 70mph, and cars in the outside lane look to be traveling at about 60mph which is just under 90 ft per second giving a difference of about 60 ft per second in approach speed to the moving bike or about 4 car lengths which there wasn't between the silver passat or the silver saloon on the outside of the shogun.

Now given that he would have had to accelerate to at least 60mph to match the approaching vehicle in the outside lane whilst at the same time negotiating the overtake of the car in front of him in the inside lane after doing life savers over both shoulders, selecting the correct gear for maximum acceleration etc, do you honestly think that he could do this with any degree of safety margin when this type of manouver goes against all the training which riders AND car drivers are given and that it would have taken him a minimum of 4 seconds to match the speed of the car in the outside lane given that he would be in at least 2nd gear - maybe 3rd gear.

Also your assertion of the polo leaving the layby is flawed as it had more space to come out because the car in front of the bike had already slowed to 20mph to let it out. The cars in the outside lane hadn't as there was nothing in their way to slow them, and nor had the silver passat which wasn't paying attention and matching the speed of the cars in the outside lane.

Your numbers just don't add up in the real world MrP, it is a bike not a tardis

 

[zimzum42]

You two should really just start shagging

 

[LLB]

You cannot judge the standard of my riding on this debate. It makes you look ridiculous to attempt to do so.

An accident investigator has already stated that the accident was unavoidable given the speed of the passat irrespective of lane position. A life saver wouldn't have saved him.

You are now apportioning blame to the rider by accusing him of appalling riding, and this simply would be laughed out of court (which you have been previously been seeking to avoid to strengthen your stance).

Can you make up your mind whether you want to blame the rider or not please as your standpoint is changing from post to post.

 

[lynx]

Wow so this topic really is off course.

Several other areas outside london allow PTW in to bus lanes Bristol is a great example. So where was the carnage in Bristol?

In London westminster and London borough of Kingston allow PTWs in to buslanes not as part of the TFL survey but permanently. So where is the carnage there?

 

[lynx]

You keep making this statement Lynx. It's wrong! PTWs are not allowed in bus lanes in Westminster and Richmond, except where they were part of the study. Bus lanes are controlled by Transport for London - not by the local authority.


I accept that you have a bias on these matters - but at least get your facts straight.

Sorry meant kingston not richmond.

As for getting facts straight, can you answer me a few questions. First were these areas used by the TFL survey? Secondly if TFL do control the bus lanes how have LB of Westminster and LB of kingston upon thames done what they have done?

I have also noted your bias in this matter, but please check facts before calling them into question.

 

[LLB]

I haven't. I said that the only reasons that I can think of for you defending a biker who could have done things better is that you were either just being blindly defensive of bikers or didn't have much of an idea of riding. And that I thought it was the former.


Read my response to your bloke's thread. We're 99% in agreement.

There's an argument that once he'd appeared on the clip he was committed and there was little he could do to avoid the collision. But events led him and the car to be where they were, and this is where choices could have changed the outcome.

Read his piece which I quoted, and which you kindly led me to. Read the HC which I pointed you towards. Remember back to your days of training. Pay particular attention to the issue of awareness and mirror checks. It's all about constant awareness of what's around.

Don't be daft. I'll remind you again that this isn't about blame, and it's most certainly not about court cases.

What it is about is taking responsibility, as the most vulnerable road users, for our own safety on the roads. Blaming the driver won't stop this happening again. Some undefensive reflection on the part of the biker will.

The biker had choices. The following car did not appear from nowhere. The biker should, had he been following his teaching, have been aware of it long before the lifesaver stage. Instead, the biker said that he saw the police car, and made the snap decision to pull over to tell the policeman about something that he had seen on the other side of road. He said "There was a loud bang, everything went black ". These aren't the words of someone who was aware of what was in his immediate vicinity.

What he needs to do is look at the events that led him to be in a position where a collision was inevitable. He needs to look at what he could have done to avoid it at stages throughout the build-up. He could have avoided the actions of a reckless driver.

I've never blamed the rider, and I've never changed my standpoint.

What I have said all along is that the rider had choices. And in this case he unfortunately appears to have made the wrong choice, which resulted in a car driving into him (note my choice of words).

Given your vast PTW experience, perhaps you can offer your opinion on how he could have manouvered to facilitate this and not endanger the other road users ?