Long-Bailey sacked for sharing anti Semitic article

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
I also stated that i also don't agree with Isreal's annexation, so in terms on what the international community agreed with it is very simple. on who's to blame for what it's more complicated and the look away mentality when it comes down to Palestinian war crimes is terrible. In any book moving your rockect launching capabilities purposely into schools and other buildings where they cause extra civilian harm or moving women and children into likely targets is a war crime. However if the Palestinians do it it is ignored, until they really can't deny the evidence anymore.. (proof here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fakhura_school_incident#:~:text=4 Initial reactions-,Overview,which exploded outside the school. and admitted in 2014 https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/

''After a wave of violence between Israelis and Palestinians in 2015, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas announced that Palestinians would no longer be bound by the Oslo Accords. '' source: https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/israeli-palestinian-conflict indeed to link you posted earlier.
In any ongoing conflict there will be tit for tat.

And behaviours, and actions, on both sides, that any right minded person would consider appalling.

Looked as as a whole though,

In terms of who has overwhelming firepower, and the motivation to use it.

Who has far greater clout on the global stage.

Who has support both political. and fiscal from a 'superpower'

Looked at in those terms I don't think it's too difficult to actually see who is the oppressed, and who is the oppressor in this ongoing situation.

Who is stealing land, and resources. from whom??

Other people may look at all this and see things differently, for reasons of their own that is their perogative.

Personally, I'm constitutionally unsuited to siding with the bullies.
 
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dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
In any ongoing conflict there will be tit for tat.
And behaviours, and actions, on both sides, that any right minded person would consider appalling.
besides to point that you claimed it was different than you own source says. It was Abbas of the Palestinians who canceled those accords.
Looked as as a whole though,
In terms of who has overwhelming firepower, and the motivation to use it.
Who has far greater clout on the global stage.
Who has support both political. and fiscal from a 'superpower'
Looked at in those terms I don't think it's too difficult to actually see who is the oppressed, and who is the oppressor in this ongoing situation.
Yeah that's the common leftist view, blindfolded ''Isreal is the strongest, so they have to be the bullies'' look at the way both countries are goverments are formed who has the most to gain by ongoing unrest and thirst for blood? Isreal with an parlement, democratic-ish system or the other side, fractions fighting with in eachother about who hates isreal the most who has to most power and so forth...
Also do you know how many rocket attacks Isreal has endured before they take action? especially under Obama?


Who is stealing land, and resources. from whom??
Other people may look at all this and see things differently, for reasons of their own that is their perogative.
Personally, I'm constitutionally unsuited to siding with the bullies.
There is an holy book actually at least two that describe a lot of battles of in history given both of them a claim on those lands, so it it not that simple having said that i also don't agree with Isreal's renewed land graps, aswell as i don't agree with branding the palestinians as the victims, they simply aren't
 
As a sort of aside, I saw this article today. I know the accepted narrative is the Israel state is evil and I certainly abhor the thieving of land that they're currently undertaking, but some Palestinians are also victims of their own leadership.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/middleeast/rami-aman-palestinian-activist-arrested.html?auth=login-google

A Palestinian peace activist has been arrested for talking to similar peace activists in Israel.

A video chat, intended to build bridges between Israeli and Palestinian strangers, led some in Gaza to label the conversation itself an act of treason.
the Hamas armed wing and other militant groups issued a joint statement declaring that “normalization in all its forms and activities is treason, a crime, and religiously, nationally and morally unacceptable.”
 

MichaelW2

Veteran
As a sort of aside, I saw this article today. I know the accepted narrative is the Israel state is evil and I certainly abhor the thieving of land that they're currently undertaking, but some Palestinians are also victims of their own leadership.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/middleeast/rami-aman-palestinian-activist-arrested.html?auth=login-google

A Palestinian peace activist has been arrested for talking to similar peace activists in Israel.
Censorship by the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and well trained self-censorship means that the correct narrative is expressed to the large international press corps (with their appointed Palestinian minders) and to the large corps of activist journalists. There are rules; everyone knows what to say and what to report and what to leave out.
When an Indian film crew wanted to tell a different story they knew they could only do so after leaving and could never return.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
As a sort of aside, I saw this article today. I know the accepted narrative is the Israel state is evil and I certainly abhor the thieving of land that they're currently undertaking, but some Palestinians are also victims of their own leadership.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/world/middleeast/rami-aman-palestinian-activist-arrested.html?auth=login-google

A Palestinian peace activist has been arrested for talking to similar peace activists in Israel.

Is it the accepted narrative that the State of Israel is evil, really ??

I don't see that as the commonly reported stance, at all.

Some news sources report that some of the activities of the State of Israel are totally reprehensible yes.

And that by annexing land, and other heavy handed actions such as settling territories that are not theirs, and using overwhelming firepower and military force to control the movements and lawful activities of the Palestinian people, they the Israelis are not helping to establish, or further a peaceful two state solution.

Which is what the UN and most of the rest of the world would like to see happen, to bring peace to the region.

That's far closer to the narrative that I've come across in the mainstream press.

I'm sure that there is plenty of questionable activity on the Palestinian side too, but it's fairly difficult to get away from the fact that the power balance is unequal, or that Israel isn't trying it on big time at the moment.

So to say "It's not fair everyone is being mean to Israel, and saying that they're being awful when they're not really"

Is a long way from the truth of the matter isn't it, even if the Palestinians haven't been angelic in their behaviour either ??
 
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mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
Just as well nobody said that then.
OK, so I wonder what you meant by

"I know the accepted narrative is that the Israeli State is evil"

I was challenging that that is the "accepted narrative"

When in fact its the actions of the Israeli State, in some circumstances which are the thing people are taking issue with.

Otherwise it sounds like you're claiming some kind of 'victimisation by unfair reputation" for the Israeli State, where that victim status is not really warranted.
 
It's an accepted narrative inasmuch as any negative comment about Palestine gets immediately countered with "ah but Israel's worserer".

Not that we see many negative comments about Palestine.
 
My wife runs a Runescape clan ('tis an online role playing game M'Lud) with hundreds of members - mainly teenagers - from around the world. She's been running this for about 15 years and has seen kids grow up, get jobs and have families. She set up a homework club because the kids would get in trouble for playing so much online at the expense of school and by natural progression she became an agony aunt to many of these socially awkward kids. Where am I going with this? Over the years she's had many Israeli kids in her clan and a couple of Palestinians, never concurrently because it seems they're taught at school not to mix, even online. Some of the Israeli kids have been awful - young Israeli "supremacists" if you will, convinced of the greatness of their country and the inferiority of others. For many of them, the first thing they would ask other members was "Are you Jude?". If the answer was "no", then they were blocked. Very similar behaviour came from the Palestinian kids. A couple of the Israeli kids said they were taught this at school and teachers had access to their online activity to check it was appropriate.

How can there ever be hope for peace in the Middle East when every generation is taught to hate? I read that the British diplomat charged with trying to broker an agreement between the Palestinians and Jews after WWII gave up because he didn't think the two could ever agree to co-exist. Seventy years later, nothing's changed!

I've posted a story about one side making it clear that talking with the other is forbidden and the kneejerk response has been "Ah but Israel...".
 
My wife runs a Runescape clan ('tis an online role playing game M'Lud) with hundreds of members - mainly teenagers - from around the world. She's been running this for about 15 years and has seen kids grow up, get jobs and have families. She set up a homework club because the kids would get in trouble for playing so much online at the expense of school and by natural progression she became an agony aunt to many of these socially awkward kids. Where am I going with this? Over the years she's had many Israeli kids in her clan and a couple of Palestinians, never concurrently because it seems they're taught at school not to mix, even online. Some of the Israeli kids have been awful - young Israeli "supremacists" if you will, convinced of the greatness of their country and the inferiority of others. For many of them, the first thing they would ask other members was "Are you Jude?". If the answer was "no", then they were blocked. Very similar behaviour came from the Palestinian kids. A couple of the Israeli kids said they were taught this at school and teachers had access to their online activity to check it was appropriate.

How can there ever be hope for peace in the Middle East when every generation is taught to hate? I read that the British diplomat charged with trying to broker an agreement between the Palestinians and Jews after WWII gave up because he didn't think the two could ever agree to co-exist. Seventy years later, nothing's changed!

I've posted a story about one side making it clear that talking with the other is forbidden and the kneejerk response has been "Ah but Israel...".
I knew an Israeli guy who ran an online game and who was a mostly sensible nerd before his conscription into the IDF, afterwards he was a barbarous bigot who liked to use phrases that I will not utter here and talked at length about how much he would like to shoot aforementioned phrases I will not utter here.

His abhorrent opinions subsequently cropped up in alt-right communities about a decade later.

He's obviously not representative of every Israeli but there does seem to be something hideously rotten, if not in the state of Israel itself, certainly in the IDF training camps. Going from being a guy who gets into arguments about what programming language is better into talking openly and unashamedly about slaughtering people for having the temerity to exist. :sad:
 
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mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
My wife runs a Runescape clan ('tis an online role playing game M'Lud) with hundreds of members - mainly teenagers - from around the world. She's been running this for about 15 years and has seen kids grow up, get jobs and have families. She set up a homework club because the kids would get in trouble for playing so much online at the expense of school and by natural progression she became an agony aunt to many of these socially awkward kids. Where am I going with this? Over the years she's had many Israeli kids in her clan and a couple of Palestinians, never concurrently because it seems they're taught at school not to mix, even online. Some of the Israeli kids have been awful - young Israeli "supremacists" if you will, convinced of the greatness of their country and the inferiority of others. For many of them, the first thing they would ask other members was "Are you Jude?". If the answer was "no", then they were blocked. Very similar behaviour came from the Palestinian kids. A couple of the Israeli kids said they were taught this at school and teachers had access to their online activity to check it was appropriate.

How can there ever be hope for peace in the Middle East when every generation is taught to hate? I read that the British diplomat charged with trying to broker an agreement between the Palestinians and Jews after WWII gave up because he didn't think the two could ever agree to co-exist. Seventy years later, nothing's changed!

I've posted a story about one side making it clear that talking with the other is forbidden and the kneejerk response has been "Ah but Israel...".
I knew an Israeli guy who ran an online game and who was a mostly sensible nerd before his conscription into the IDF, afterwards he was a barbarous bigot who liked to use phrases that I will not utter here and talked at length about how much he would like to shoot aforementioned phrases I will not utter here.

His abhorrent opinions subsequently cropped up in alt-right communities about a decade later.

He's obviously not representative of every Israeli but there does seem to be something hideously rotten, if not in the state of Israel itself, certainly in the IDF training camps. Going from being a guy who gets into arguments about what programming language is better into talking openly and unashamedly about slaughtering people for having the temerity to exist. :sad:
OK I'm going to get shot down for this I'm guessing, for oversimplification maybe.

But post WW2. Germany went through, still is in many ways, a highly intensive period of self exorcism.

Whereby the chance of any of the recurrence of the horrific attitudes or actions of the imperialist Nazi regime, could never be replayed, or allowed to propagate.


So the Jewish people, having suffered probably the most systematic, mechanistic, industrialised even, attempt at hateful eradication in the history of mankind, are surely mindful of these potential horrors.

But are they doing their level best not to mete out suppressing, and injust illtreatment to their culturally different yes, but still very human nearest neighbours ??

I know that the Palestinians haven't always 'turned the other cheek' in the face of being invaded, or harried, indeed one could ask why should they?


But doubtless there has been aggression on both sides.
Even if the firepower available has differed by several orders of magnitude.

But TBH if someone tried to come and take over my fertile landed farm, which supports me, my family, and my wider community.
I'd probably fight back with everything I had, bricks, homeade bombs and all of it, if I had no recourse to national, or international law to protect my land, and property.

Looked at from the outside, all this looks very much like the horribly bullied, turning into bullies themselves.

I'm really not clear as to the supposed justification.
 
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Mr Celine

Discordian
Location
Not Ingolstadt
....How can there ever be hope for peace in the Middle East when every generation is taught to hate? I read that the British diplomat charged with trying to broker an agreement between the Palestinians and Jews after WWII gave up because he didn't think the two could ever agree to co-exist. Seventy years later, nothing's changed!

I've posted a story about one side making it clear that talking with the other is forbidden and the kneejerk response has been "Ah but Israel...".
Surely as a Scottish football fan you remember the tale (possibly apocryphal, but widely circulated at the time) of Graeme Souness signing Avi Cohen for Rangers?

"Boss, this Avi Cohen guy, is he catholic or protestant?"
"He's jewish ya numpty!"
"I know that, but is he a catholic jew or a protestant jew?"

Let him without sin cast the first stone.....
 
OK I'm going to get shot down for this I'm guessing, for oversimplification maybe.

But post WW2. Germany went through, still is in many ways, a highly intensive period of self exorcism.

Whereby the chance of any of the recurrence of the horrific attitudes or actions of the imperialist Nazi regime, could never be replayed, or allowed to propagate.


So the Jewish people, having suffered probably the most systematic, mechanistic, industrialised even, attempt at hateful eradication in the history of mankind, are surely mindful of these potential horrors.

But are they doing their level best not to mete out suppressing, and injust illtreatment to their culturally different yes, but still very human nearest neighbours ??

I know that the Palestinians haven't always 'turned the other cheek' in the face of being invaded, or harried, indeed one could ask why should they?


But doubtless there has been aggression on both sides.
Even if the firepower available has differed by several orders of magnitude.

But TBH if someone tried to come and take over my fertile landed farm, which supports me, my family, and my wider community.
I'd probably fight back with everything I had, bricks, homeade bombs and all of it, if I had no recourse to national, or international law to protect my land, and property.

Looked at from the outside, all this looks very much like the horribly bullied, turning into bullies themselves.

I'm really not clear as to the supposed justification.
I am not for one second excusing the actions of Israel. I'm hearing lots of excuses for the Palestinians though.

I'm pointing out that both sides ingrain the hate in their children to a degree that ensures there will never be a willing peace between the two peoples - unless that can be changed. I doubt there's a Graeme Souness to step in and show one side just how petty and ridiculous their actions are but until such a figure appears (maybe Chinese or Indian), I think it's wrong for anyone to be cheerleading for either side.
 

mudsticks

Obviously an Aubergine
I am not for one second excusing the actions of Israel. I'm hearing lots of excuses for the Palestinians though.

I'm pointing out that both sides ingrain the hate in their children to a degree that ensures there will never be a willing peace between the two peoples - unless that can be changed. I doubt there's a Graeme Souness to step in and show one side just how petty and ridiculous their actions are but until such a figure appears (maybe Chinese or Indian), I think it's wrong for anyone to be cheerleading for either side.
Should the Palestinians not defend themselves against invasion, or thievery of their lands?

Does the Israeli State expect them to capitulate without a fight?

I'm sure there is generations of bad feeling and antagonism that has built up over the years.

It's not cheerleasing to point out that one side in a dispute is being massively overwhelmed, and abused is it.??
 
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