Missing the point - air miles and the environment....

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/14/air-miles-should-be-taxed-to-deter-frequent-fliers-advises-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Now I get the point about pursuading people to fly less, but both this article and even the BBC failed with the bleedin’ obvious. The overwhelming number of frequent fliers are business users not holiday makers. It takes a lot of flights to build appreciable air miles, so for private travel is only a benefit to a few.
It’s business users you dummies that rack-up the points, people like me flying every week along with all the other grey Corporate briefcase carriers that fill planes week-in week-out and it’s not driven by air miles, loyalty cards only influence choice of airline, not the desire to fly.
I’ve flown once in 20 years for pleasure, but have a corporate flying carbon footprint the size of a small country. Lets be honest about who is doing the damage and why....
 
Good morning,

I am regularly ridiculed here for suggesting that the man made part of global warming situation is nowhere near as simple as the summaries of the reports from the experts such as the Committee on Climate Change suggest.

The suggestion on air miles comes from the Committee on Climate Change (CCC).

As someone who used to commute to Dublin once a week for a short period of time, I can assure anyone that the time spent getting to the airport and waiting around for the flight as part of the working week wasn't something that I did gladly.

Birmingham airport to Dublin Airport is around about 190 miles, the trip from home to the Airport was around 50 miles and from Dublin to the office another 20.

Given that a typical jet gets around 70-90mpg if it is full, (this is a terribly complex calculation that you can make come out with a huge range of numbers) and the emissions difference between the two engine types are not massively apart you can argue that the flight had the same environmental cost as the drive to and from the airport.

Clearly many flights are longer, but so is the drive to the airport. In many cases people are driven to the airport and the driver returns home, then drives to the airport to collect the passenger and returns home.

Bye

Ian
 

Low Gear Guy

Senior Member
Location
Surrey
A surprisingly high proportion of passengers are on leisure trips. It is estimated that only 30% of Heathrow's users are on business. The proportion will be lower at Gatwick and other airports.

This is partly because people travelling on work are travelling solo rather than as a family of four or five. Thus, if I take one work trip and one holiday flight less than 25% will be business related.
 
OP
Fab Foodie

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
A surprisingly high proportion of passengers are on leisure trips. It is estimated that only 30% of Heathrow's users are on business. The proportion will be lower at Gatwick and other airports.

This is partly because people travelling on work are travelling solo rather than as a family of four or five. Thus, if I take one work trip and one holiday flight less than 25% will be business related.
But that 30% business users are the frequent/repeat flier group....
 
OP
Fab Foodie

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Good morning,

I am regularly ridiculed here for suggesting that the man made part of global warming situation is nowhere near as simple as the summaries of the reports from the experts such as the Committee on Climate Change suggest.

The suggestion on air miles comes from the Committee on Climate Change (CCC).

As someone who used to commute to Dublin once a week for a short period of time, I can assure anyone that the time spent getting to the airport and waiting around for the flight as part of the working week wasn't something that I did gladly.

Birmingham airport to Dublin Airport is around about 190 miles, the trip from home to the Airport was around 50 miles and from Dublin to the office another 20.

Given that a typical jet gets around 70-90mpg if it is full, (this is a terribly complex calculation that you can make come out with a huge range of numbers) and the emissions difference between the two engine types are not massively apart you can argue that the flight had the same environmental cost as the drive to and from the airport.

Clearly many flights are longer, but so is the drive to the airport. In many cases people are driven to the airport and the driver returns home, then drives to the airport to collect the passenger and returns home.

Bye

Ian
I can't comment on the fuel consumption of an aircraft (though a quick google shows that you're in the ball-park per capita mpg), and I take your point about the pollution en-route to the airport, but isn't one of the issues where that pollution occurs, i.e at 30,000ft being far more harmful than at ground level?
I'm more than a little surprised that somebody hasn't pointed out the equivalence with driving before....
Remaining dubious and confused now!
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
Good morning,

I am regularly ridiculed here for suggesting that the man made part of global warming situation is nowhere near as simple as the summaries of the reports from the experts such as the Committee on Climate Change suggest.

The suggestion on air miles comes from the Committee on Climate Change (CCC).

As someone who used to commute to Dublin once a week for a short period of time, I can assure anyone that the time spent getting to the airport and waiting around for the flight as part of the working week wasn't something that I did gladly.

Birmingham airport to Dublin Airport is around about 190 miles, the trip from home to the Airport was around 50 miles and from Dublin to the office another 20.

Given that a typical jet gets around 70-90mpg if it is full, (this is a terribly complex calculation that you can make come out with a huge range of numbers) and the emissions difference between the two engine types are not massively apart you can argue that the flight had the same environmental cost as the drive to and from the airport.

Clearly many flights are longer, but so is the drive to the airport. In many cases people are driven to the airport and the driver returns home, then drives to the airport to collect the passenger and returns home.

Bye

Ian
And if there's more than one person in the car?
 

tfc03

Well-Known Member
We probably all need to stop flying, period. Its an inconvenient truth. Have a look at Alice Larkin and the folk at Manchester's Tyndall Centre's work, this is a good starting point: https://www.carbonbrief.org/heathrow-13-prof-alice-bows-larkins-expert-evidence-on-aviation-and-climate-change
Its not just CO2, its soot etc and as pointed out that emissions do much more damage in the upper atmosphere than at ground level. And getting to the airport is also terrible on a range of environmental criteria!
Many people don't have a lot of choice in flying for work, but many do, or could make a change if they really put their mind to it.
A lot of people have a choice about taking multiple flights a year to Europe on weekend breaks/ to their second home in southern Europe.
 

swansonj

Guru
And if there's more than one person in the car?
Yes, my understanding is that if you have three or more people in the car, driving to Australia would emit less CO2 than flying there.
😊
 

meta lon

Guru
Yes, my understanding is that if you have three or more people in the car, driving to Australia would emit less CO2 than flying there.
😊

If you factor in airport strikes and delays it may be the quicker option ;)


Ive flown 5 times in my 54 yrs so 10 trips on a plane.. I doubt ill add to this figure..
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
Yes, my understanding is that if you have three or more people in the car, driving to Australia would emit less CO2 than flying there.
😊
We could be on to something here then, sounds like we should invent something along the lines of a really big car, something than can carry lots of people. Now, what to call it?
 

Diogenes

brr, summer's over
A lot of people have a choice about taking multiple flights a year to Europe on weekend breaks/ to their second home in southern Europe.
No inherent bias there then :rolleyes:

18.8 million Brits visited Spain last year, the vast majority by air and most are working class people going to Benidorm. It's 3 hours or so by plane. I'm just back having driven and used the ferry - 2530 miles and 8 days of driving. Good luck getting people to choose driving over flying.

The people responsible for most air miles aren't the rich, it's ordinary working class people.
 
OP
Fab Foodie

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
No inherent bias there then :rolleyes:

18.8 million Brits visited Spain last year, the vast majority by air and most are working class people going to Benidorm. It's 3 hours or so by plane. I'm just back having driven and used the ferry - 2530 miles and 8 days of driving. Good luck getting people to choose driving over flying.

The people responsible for most air miles aren't the rich, it's ordinary working class people.
Which takes me back to the OP. Somehow, the Graun and the Beeb failed to make the connection that these people are highly unlikely to be racking-up the air miles.
On the other hand I am flying to Istanbul tomorrow back Friday and next week London - Dusseldorf - Rome - London.
 
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