More than 32,000 people have died on British roads in the past 10 years

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marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
very-near said:
MY, you aren't an idiot so when I use it as an example to draw a parallel where ill thought out judgment causes problems on the transport network, please don't act it.

The light system was an over engineered solution to a problem which could have been sorted with a lot less hassle, and the parallel is that to put in town wide 20 's would be total overkill

Planners do get stuff wrong from time to time in the sense that people don't behave quite like they think or that one group gets disproportionally annoyed with changes. I can cite much larger schemes in this city where planners have supposedly got it wrong and there's a "u turn. But it's been rectified in this case and what was the purpose of the light in the first place?

I'm interested as to what sort of problems you think a 20 zone might cause other than emboldening pedestrians to reclaim their streets or people putting their foot down as soon as they get out of the zone or tiredness.

I don't take the idea of people stepping out in front of vehicles because they think they'll stop too seriously as a negative because people step out in front of vehicles in a not too dissimilar fashion on 40 and 60 roads out of desperation and poor pedestrian facilities. People die doing this.

I don't think tiredness is a serious issue because journeys won't be 50% longer.
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
very-near said:
What happens when you get a driver who ignores the posted limits and is on drink, drugs or not fit to be behind a wheel (like Hannah Saff). Your 20 limits mean nothing to those who don't acknowledge them. How many million motorists get done (detected) for speeding in the UK each year 1 million, 2 million ?.

You haven't said what would prevent cases such as Hannah Saff? The only one I could see was removing all cars from the road - so I would like to hear what your suggestion would be.

20 mph zones will not solve every problem - such as the drunk driver, although if they are stuck behind a car doing 20 then it will force them to slow down.

marinyork said:
I don't think tiredness is a serious issue because journeys won't be 50% longer.

Most journey's in towns are under an hour and quite a few are more like 15-20 mins - so even if they doubled in length, are you (very-near) saying you would be significantly more tired doing a 40 minute journey?
 
marinyork said:
Planners do get stuff wrong from time to time in the sense that people don't behave quite like they think or that one group gets disproportionally annoyed with changes. I can cite much larger schemes in this city where planners have supposedly got it wrong and there's a "u turn. But it's been rectified in this case and what was the purpose of the light in the first place?

Map view here

The Brewery site was developed as a cinema/restaurant/shopping complex and sits on the side of the northern relief road (NRR Or 'St'Margarets Rd') which takes most of the traffic passing through the town from Oxford to the M5. They decided to build a multi story car park to serve this complex on the other side of the road with the entrance in Monson Avenue (MA) and narrowed MA which has the knock on effect of stopping cars turning into MA from having free passage to carry on past the car park if they weren't going into it, and put a set of lights directly on top of the car park entrance in MA for some bizarre reason which only allows the cars to exit the car park when they turn to green which traps them in the car park.
They then put in a pedestrian crossing to allow the peds to cross the NRR to the complex, but made the stupid mistake of attaching a set of traffic lights on the island which acted as a direction control for traffic passing along the NRR but didn't put in a stop line there.
The lights would change to green in the side road, Cars would turn onto the NRL see the red lights in front of them and stop which would then back up MA and allow only about 2 cars out at a time from either MA or the multi story car park.
The whole area has been engineered to obstruct free passage of vehicles which would be all well and done if they offered an alternative (but they don't). The changes to the lights have made a big improvement to the area but I'd never consider using the car park as I either walk, cycle or know better places to park if I am driving in.


I'm interested as to what sort of problems you think a 20 zone might cause other than emboldening pedestrians to reclaim their streets or people putting their foot down as soon as they get out of the zone or tiredness.

I'm sorry, but they have put pavements for people to use across the vast majority of the town centre. What is wrong with people using these spaces. The very vast majority of cars don't use the pavements, but there are a lot of cyclists who turn these supposedly safe area's into places where people can never let their guard down. As for people 'putting their foot down' outside the 20 zones, if there isn't a substantial risk to vast numbers of people or schools etc, what is wrong with them doing 30 in a 30 if it is clear to do so ? You turn the situation into an 'us and them' and it simply isn't the case

I don't take the idea of people stepping out in front of vehicles because they think they'll stop too seriously as a negative because people step out in front of vehicles in a not too dissimilar fashion on 40 and 60 roads out of desperation and poor pedestrian facilities. People die doing this.

So petition for better road crossing facilities if this is the case. A line of cars travelling in a 20 zone is no more likely to stop than a line of cars in a 30 zone. This is down to the discretion of the drivers in either zone, and if people are so cavalier to risk their lives because they are too impatient to wait for a gap in the traffic or too lazy to find a place which offers good visibility and is clear to cross, then whose fault is that ? - did you not learn the green cross code as I did, and I taught it to my kids. What gives anyone more right claim right of way over anyone else on the road just because they are on foot (unless they are crossing a side road) ?


I don't think tiredness is a serious issue because journeys won't be 50% longer.
.

You don't know that for certain and given that many drivers do so for their work and are not on the tacho means that they could have to extend their time dramatically on the roads to cover the same ground. You have no idea how many miles they might have to cover in urban zones so I don't think you can offer a qualified opinion on the subject.
 
summerdays said:
You haven't said what would prevent cases such as Hannah Saff? The only one I could see was removing all cars from the road - so I would like to hear what your suggestion would be.

20 mph zones will not solve every problem - such as the drunk driver, although if they are stuck behind a car doing 20 then it will force them to slow down.

There was clearly nothing in front of her which allowed her to attain 60mph. Your argument doesn't stand because she could have just as well got caught behind a car doing 30. The reason why he died was a combination of things. Speed being one (due to here detachment from reality) and also the fact that he was unfortunate enough to be in that space when she lost control. She could have just come off the road and killed herself and then the world would be reading about this young woman who lost her marbles , had an accident which took her life and left 2 young children behind. Life is about timing. He was very unlucky



Most journey's in towns are under an hour and quite a few are more like 15-20 mins - so even if they doubled in length, are you (very-near) saying you would be significantly more tired doing a 40 minute journey?

I am not talking about you popping to Tesco's after dropping the kids off at school. I am talking about people who drive for a living like Multi drop drivers or reps who are under pressure to get the job done.

I have no objection to 20 zones, but they need to be used with a bit of thought.
 
User3094 said:
Such as putting them where there are currently 30mph zones?

It might not 'work' everywhere but at least it would be a fair system, removing the vaguaries between any LEA subjectivity.

Happy Christmas Linf!

And yourself. Are you getting out on the cycle over the break ?
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
very-near said:
I am not talking about you popping to Tesco's after dropping the kids off at school. I am talking about people who drive for a living like Multi drop drivers or reps who are under pressure to get the job done.

I have no objection to 20 zones, but they need to be used with a bit of thought.

So what you are saying is that you can't see a way that Hannah Saff could have been prevented from killing Sam - in which case discussing it with regards to whether 20 mph zones work is irrelevant. It wouldn't have mattered if it was a 60 zone either.

What percentage of drivers on any of the non main roads are professional drivers ? If they are there it is more often because they are taking a short cut, to avoid traffic/lights etc. I see it all the time - people using back streets as rat runs and doing speeds are not in relation to the type of street they are on. You argue that people can make decisions about what speed is safe but the vast majority don't.
 
summerdays said:
So what you are saying is that you can't see a way that Hannah Saff could have been prevented from killing Sam - in which case discussing it with regards to whether 20 mph zones work is irrelevant. It wouldn't have mattered if it was a 60 zone either.

What percentage of drivers on any of the non main roads are professional drivers ? If they are there it is more often because they are taking a short cut, to avoid traffic/lights etc. I see it all the time - people using back streets as rat runs and doing speeds are not in relation to the type of street they are on. You argue that people can make decisions about what speed is safe but the vast majority don't.

Hannah Saff was an accident waiting to happen. That is why they took her license off her in the first place. lower limits only work if drivers are happy to obey them. Apply them arbitrarily everywhere as you want to, and drivers will ignore them.

Rat runs happen because of over zealous restriction of main roads with traffic lights. You can stop them by blocking up the side roads with no entries/cycle plugs, but these need to be designed properly.
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
very-near said:
Hannah Saff was an accident waiting to happen. That is why they took her license off her in the first place. lower limits only work if drivers are happy to obey them. Apply them arbitrarily everywhere as you want to, and drivers will ignore them.

Rat runs happen because of over zealous restriction of main roads with traffic lights. You can stop them by blocking up the side roads with no entries/cycle plugs, but these need to be designed properly.

Hopefully any drivers caught ignoring them will gain points on their licence to help them to remember in future.

You cannot block every rat run by putting in barriers in the road - if every road became a cul-de-sac apart from the main arteries you would soon see the motorists complaining. Yes it is nice where they have blocked the roads like that - there are plenty of examples that I use on a regular basis. But it would annoy as many if not more drivers than a 20 mph zone.
 
User3094 said:
Hopefully. Im a bit of a fair weather roadie but might get the old Marin out for a bit... Family duty calls for the next couple of days though. You?

I'd like to think so (maybe rope a mate into heading out to a country pub if the ice goes). Much the same really with the family.
M/cycle is not going to be ridden for a couple of months at this rate either, so it is either shank's pony or in the tin box.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
summerdays said:
So what you are saying is that you can't see a way that Hannah Saff could have been prevented from killing Sam - in which case discussing it with regards to whether 20 mph zones work is irrelevant. It wouldn't have mattered if it was a 60 zone either.

What percentage of drivers on any of the non main roads are professional drivers ? If they are there it is more often because they are taking a short cut, to avoid traffic/lights etc. I see it all the time - people using back streets as rat runs and doing speeds are not in relation to the type of street they are on. You argue that people can make decisions about what speed is safe but the vast majority don't.
I think that's a very good point. 20mph zones are part of the solution to speeding in residential areas. Limiting access to suburban streets to create 'home zones' is another such part.
 
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