Red Light Jumpers-Satan or Saviour?

[jonny jeez]

I'm pretty sure this question must have been raised a zillion times before (but after some extensive searching .....I cant find it).

Given the awful occurrence on Monday morning and the sad death of Catriona Cockburn, I kinda got to thinking about the way I ride.

I tend to be pretty assertive and command my position on the road (pretty well in my own opinion) and I like to travel pretty quick, so a fair amount of scalping enroute can be expected most days.

However, after reading all the posts relating to Monday I rode home (and in again today) with a hightend sense of observation as to the style and methods that other riders employ during their own travels.

One thing I did notice, (and I am sure to get flamed from here to page 115 for this!) is that a lot of riders seem to get themselves well ahead of the traffic at lights, not simply just jumping them, but more (it would seem) to remove themselves from the risks associated with cycling off from a standing start when surrounded by motorists, motorcyclists, lorryists bussists and all manner of road sharers.

I watched this on every single red light I came to and they genuinely don't seem to be doing it for any other advantage, as I soon caught up with them regardless. It seems to simply be a case of "safe" positioning. These riders kinda pad their way out into no-mans land, backside off the saddle, one foot on the deck and are almost walking their bikes out of the "danger Zone"

So, I guess what I am asking is, is this red light jumping, or is it safe positioning.

I should stress that I also saw a few nutters simply cruise across all the lights weaving as they went and putting them selves at massive risk (that is not what I am asking about...that is clearly daft beyond consideration)

PS, I placed this in the commuter section as I feel it is a commuter only symptom/effect. Ive not noticed this occurring along my local high street or weekend cruise.

(braces himself for rampant flaming)

Jonny

 

[Origamist]

I'm pretty sure this question must have been raised a zillion times before (but after some extensive searching .....I cant find it).

Given the awful occurrence on Monday morning and the sad death of Catriona Cockburn, I kinda got to thinking about the way I ride.


Jonny

Catriona Cockburn died on Monday 29th June - I'm not sure what other awful occurence you are referring to.

 

[jonny jeez]

Catriona Cockburn died on Monday 29th June - I'm not sure what other awful occurence you are referring to.

Thanks Orgamist, I mis understood the dates and kinda got immersed in the whole thread, as this occured on my own route and feels pretty close to me.

thanks for putting me straight...must check post dates in future!

 

[Arch]

[I watched this on every single red light I came to and they genuinely don't seem to be doing it for any other advantage, as I soon caught up with them regardless. It seems to simply be a case of "safe" positioning. These riders kinda pad their way out into no-mans land, backside off the saddle, one foot on the deck and are almost walking their bikes out of the "danger Zone"[/FONT][/COLOR]

So, I guess what I am asking is, is this red light jumping, or is it safe positioning.

Personally, I'd say it was pointless. Either put yourself in the middle of the lane at the stop line, if you happen to be at the front, or fit in the queue. I find that mostly I am quicker off the mark than a driver, so I can get away and hold the position I want over the junction. I'll often filter to an ASL if there is one, but if not, I'll filter part of the way and wait back a bit - there's normally a space between cars where one hasn't pulled right up to the one in front. And there's little point in scrambling to get ahead of a large vehicle that will only have to pass you moments later - I leave buses and trucks ahead of me if I happen to be behind them already.

The cyclists involved will probably claim it's safe positioning. Personally, I avoid being killed (so far) without resorting to it and it smacks to me of impatience.

 

[Twanger]

Nothing flamable here, you seem to be raising a sensible issue sensibly.

Safe positioning is one thing, RLJ another, in my opinion.

However, there is also something which has been referred to as creating "A sandbar of stupidity" where cyclists just assume they have the right and duty (?) to get to the front...and to the front of other cyclists. They build the sandbar out over the lights, whith each cyclist coming up going to the front. This often seems to lead to to a waddling, wobbling horde of cyclists cutting each other up when the lights go green. I don't like it. I hate being cut up from the left (and also hate being told to "get over it and go quicker" when I moan about it).

I think setting off in orderly, co-ordinated fashion, respecting other road users (even motorists) is safer.

 

[hackbike 666]

The cyclists involved will probably claim it's safe positioning. Personally, I avoid being killed (so far) without resorting to it and it smacks to me of impatience.

I do it and im not impatient.If I was surely I would rlj?

I don't set off before the lights change and I check traffic from other directions so just because you don't do it I find you comment unfair and not thought out.

Apart from the fact I have ben commuting the same route for 20+years.

Safe positioning is one thing, RLJ another, in my opinion.

However, there is also something which has been referred to as creating "A sandbar of stupidity" where cyclists just assume they have the right and duty (?) to get to the front...and to the front of other cyclists.

Yes I don't make it my "duty" to get to the front generally I hang back in traffic more if I have to.I think I know my variation of routes pretty well so it's no problem but I think you are right on this one.I think at one time I made it "my duty" to get to the front but now I use a variation of tactics depending on the situation.You can actually ride up to peds without scaring the doodah out of them.I try to ride in a courier style in London without jumping the reds of course.Or if that doesn't make sense I try to ride more relaxed as so not to panic the peds and it seems to work.You know they are going to step out so why get upset about it?

I think I got sidetracked here sorry.

 

[Arch]

The cyclists involved will probably claim it's safe positioning. Personally, I avoid being killed (so far) without resorting to it and it smacks to me of impatience.

I do it and im not impatient.If I was surely I would rlj?

I don't set off before the lights change and I check traffic from other directions so just because you don't do it I find you comment unfair and not thought out.

Sorry about that, it's just my feeling. It's perfectly well thought out, maybe it's wrong in your case but that doesn't make it not thought out. I'm always slightly suspicious that someone who has crossed the line is hoping to just go anyway.

So enlighten me, why do you do it? What's wrong with the stop line as designed?

(that's another issue, of course, that a cyclist in front of the stop line may well be in the way of long vehicles wanting to turn a tight corner - I can think of several places around York where putting yourself further ahead would put you in conflict with a turning bus or lorry)

Mind you, it's good training, if anyone passes me waiting at the line in order to wait further out, I'll be doing my damnedest to pass them once we get going....

 

[mr_cellophane]

I have given up trying to get to the front as all the ASL in London are full of motorbikes. No use queezing through and waiting ahead of the line as they are there as well.

 

[skrx]

If I waited my turn in the queues (as someone's suggesting) it would take me two or three changes of the lights to get through. Call me impatient, but I'll be pushing in at the front ;-). Half the point of cycling to work is that it's quicker, and part of the reason it's quicker is because I can overtake all the standing traffic.

On a Sunday or at night, when there's less traffic, I'll stick in the (short) queue if the road is narrow, but if it's two+ lanes or has a cycle path I may as well ride to the front, there'll be plenty of room.

 

[hackbike 666]

No I never squeeze it's bad manners.I'll get back to you later on that Arch but basically its because I want motons to know im there.So im in their faces and not hiding in traffic.Also some traffic lights have pinch points or dodgy left hand turns.

 

[HLaB]

90% of the time I just slot in to the queue and ignore the ASL. Occasionally I've been caught out trying to find a gap to slot into and headed for the ASL only to discover its completely blocked then rather than waiting in a drivers blind spot, Ive rolled past the stop line and waited there. Technically that's a RLJ but I'd rather be seen by the driver than not in those situations.

 

[Evilcat]

Most of the time on my commute it's people kinda-doing a sandbar of stupidity + RLJ, in that they'll go past the stop line and out into the junction so far they can't see any lights, then wait until they _think_ it might be clear and wobble on across. I see this every day down from Notting Hill to the Holland Park roundabout. Normally the end result is that the road becomes a teaming mass of wobbling cyclists (particularly given the roadworks at the moment) followed by some fairly irate motorists.

My preferred approach is to slip into a gap a few cars back and then keep up with the traffic (pretty easy in London most of the time)... sooner or later I'll overtake the RLJers. On the odd occasion I've done a different route and ended up turning right down Notting Hill I've usually had a near miss with a cretin on a bike jumping the lights.

Here's a thought... if ASLs were rigorously enforced (i.e. fines for any powered vehicles encroaching) then a quid pro quo of a clamp down on red light jumping at the same time might make sense. Plus some education for all concerned. Of course, it will never happen as responsibilities for this would need to be shared amongst local councils, the police, the home office, the GLA in London and so forth. No chance.

EC

 

[ComedyPilot]

RLJ'ing is pure impatience and bad forward planning. If they'd look further than their nose ends, they'd see it was red, and simply coming off the gas for a few pedal strokes will see them sail through on green.

 

[purplepolly]

...and when you are only 20 yards away and the lights change?

enjoy the scenery?

http://www.englishverse.com/poems/leisure

 

[mr_cellophane]

If I buy the wool, has any one got a patten so I can knit one of these red light jumpers ?