Scotland: what's going to happen?

Scotland?

  • I would love to be a Jock

    Votes: 13 31.0%
  • I have no clue, and you Jocks can all sod off

    Votes: 17 40.5%
  • I do not have a TV

    Votes: 12 28.6%

  • Total voters
    42

Edwardoka

Shambling ruin of a man
Wrote a long snide comment, decided not to post as I'm not nearly as clever as I think I am when I'm sleep deprived.
I've saved it to review when I'm rested but I suspect it's not worth posting.

Will say though: there are many ideologies that have been called nationalism and there are many ways nationalism can manifest. Some are uglier than others, and some are treated differently than others, although quite often they're conflated (usually to fit one's agenda).
 
Each circumstance is different. How's it going for the Basque separatists or Catalonia.
Catalonia is being kept in Spain by force. I can't speak for the Basque country.

I fail to see how you can argue for the UK being in the EU and Scotland not within the UK.
Because the EU is a grouping of independent nations which are still sovereign and look after their own internal affairs, but have agreed to work together on very specific areas, beyond which the EU has no authority. The United Kingdom is a unitary authority where one part of the 'union' is able to dictate to the other three, meddle in internal politics and hold into the reigns of power. My home state of Baden-Württemberg has more power in Germany than the Scottish parliament in the UK. It also has more say in how the Federal grouping of Germany should work, and can make more decisions about its own affairs. I think if the promised changes to the structure of the UK had been delivered after 2014 then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, and Scottish Nationalists would be reduced to a few romantics or right wingers, but unfortunately they weren't.

The argument for Scotland being independent is partly that there is no reason that it shouldn't be a normal country like the other EU member states.

I fail to see any difference between Scottish nationalism or English nationalism but one seems to be good and the other not so good.
This doesn't look like this in Germany, where a lot of people seem very supportive of Scottish independence. Indyref1 left us with the impression of a modern, open and welcoming country.

The day after Brexit, the Scottish Government moved to reassure EU nationals that they were still welcome in the country. They held a meeting where the Scottish cabinet spoke to EU citizens with an open mike. At the same time the British Government was referring to EU nationals in the UK (and UK nationals in the EU) as "Bargaining chips"

Seen from here (and I realise we don't get an entirely accurate picture) the only unpleasant nationalists are the ones making Nazi salutes and hurling abuse at Indy marches, and they all seem to be waving Union Flags.

But as we've seen throughout Europe, nationalism as a movement is destructive and not so good for those indulging in it, otherwise you'd be arguing that Brexit is good.
Right-wing nationalism, the sort of "my country right or wrong" or 'Blood and soil' nationalism currently rearing its ugly head is destructive, but again, I've only come across that in any numbers from British Nationalists.

The EU only works with the tension between healthy nationalism and awareness of the different and unique cultures of the different nations of Europe, and the need to work together and avoid all of our cultures being destroyed.

I would agree to a large extent, not completely, because Scottish nationalism is not without it's extremists but each movement has the same thing in common. They weaken the country now on the promise of jam tomorow but they don't know where they're going to get the jam.
The current right wing populists would do that, indeed, but they are largely acting within countries that are already independent.

As to nationalist movements that achieved independence, which countries, within Europe could that apply to? The countries which I can think of that became independent in the last century, at least by democratic means, became stronger as a result.

Which raises the question: why is Scotland different to Norway (independent since 1905); Finland (1917); Iceland (1918); or the Slovak Republic (1993))?
 
Wrote a long snide comment, decided not to post as I'm not nearly as clever as I think I am when I'm sleep deprived.
I've saved it to review when I'm rested but I suspect it's not worth posting.

Will say though: there are many ideologies that have been called nationalism and there are many ways nationalism can manifest. Some are uglier than others, and some are treated differently than others, although quite often they're conflated (usually to fit one's agenda).
I'd agree there: when I moved to Germany no-one would wave a German flag, although the Bavarians would wave a Bavarian flag. Now we see flags all the time, as a new generation of Germans feels more comfortable with being German. The thing is, we're also more multiracial than we were so it is very common and completely accepted for people to wave the flag of their home country and a German flag together.

Unfortunately I'm not comfortable waving a British -union- flag, for exactly the reasons @Crackle describes...
 
Because the EU is a grouping of independent nations which are still sovereign and look after their own internal affairs, but have agreed to work together on very specific areas, beyond which the EU has no authority. The United Kingdom is a unitary authority where one part of the 'union' is able to dictate to the other three, meddle in internal politics and hold into the reigns of power. My home state of Baden-Württemberg has more power in Germany than the Scottish parliament in the UK. It also has more say in how the Federal grouping of Germany should work, and can make more decisions about its own affairs. I think if the promised changes to the structure of the UK had been delivered after 2014 then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, and Scottish Nationalists would be reduced to a few romantics or right wingers, but unfortunately they weren't.

The argument for Scotland being independent is partly that there is no reason that it shouldn't be a normal country like the other EU member states.
The logical conclusion of that is for the Scottish parliament to have more powers and more say in the affairs of Westminster, this I'm all in favour of.

Right-wing nationalism, the sort of "my country right or wrong" or 'Blood and soil' nationalism currently rearing its ugly head is destructive, but again, I've only come across that in any numbers from British Nationalists.
So you've not met any extreme Scottish Nationalists. I have, they exist.

I should add I'm not against Scottish independence, I hope, for my own selfish reasons, that it doesn't occur and that if it does, Scots and Scotland are not disadvantaged by it.
 
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I just see it as daftness. I've lived and worked all over the UK and I continue to work in both Scotland and England. The idea of putting barriers - physical or financial - between people is just a nonsense. In my experience the loudest and most strident nationalists are the least travelled - be they Britnats or Scotnats.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
Scottish nationalism is socialist,
You are missing the word "currently". Scottish nationalism is like any nationalism - it puts notional separateness at the top of the list of desirable outcomes and then adopts the most convenient other policies to get there. It wasn't that long ago that the SNP were the Tartan Tories and had policies to match.

In 1975, it was leftwingers who flew the flag for a nationalistic view of Britain outside the EEC (see: Jeremy Corbyn and chums). Now it's right-wingers.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
Right-wing nationalism, the sort of "my country right or wrong" or 'Blood and soil' nationalism currently rearing its ugly head is destructive, but again, I've only come across that in any numbers from British Nationalists.
Speaking from Germany as you are that comes across as quite naive, both currently and historically.

As to nationalist movements that achieved independence, which countries, within Europe could that apply to?
In my lifetime, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and both its constituent countries, all seven countries of the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova. Plus Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

All have achieved a measure of independence, ranging from a little to a lot. It's taken a number of forms and some have been more successful than others. "Independence" isn't an either/or state - not even North Korea, which is the most independent country in the world, can really say that it is the master of its own destiny - it's a continuum.

We used to have an Andy in Germany on here who was a naive romantic. It was easy to wind him up by pointing out that the nation state in control of its own borders and future is a creation of the 20th century. And as a concept it died in the 20th century too.
 
Speaking from Germany as you are that comes across as quite naive, both currently and historically.
I was speaking in the context of Scotland here, although I appreciate it isn't obvious from my original sentence. I've been watching and listening a lot to the Scotixsh indy movement and the campaigns, and within that context, the majority of very right wing types are the ones in the British Nationalist camp (including the BNP, UKIP and others)

Obviously that doesn't mean everyone supporting the union is a right wing nutter, there are honourable reasons to support the union.

In my lifetime, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and both its constituent countries, all seven countries of the former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova. Plus Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

All have achieved a measure of independence, ranging from a little to a lot.
East Germany never became independent: The GDR Dissolved itself, and became a part of a reunified Germany after elections returned parties supporting this, on October the 3rd 1990. There are some people who think it would have been better for East Germany to be independent of the west: I've heard some good reasons, others not so much.

All have achieved a measure of independence, ranging from a little to a lot. It's taken a number of forms and some have been more successful than others. "Independence" isn't an either/or state - not even North Korea, which is the most independent country in the world, can really say that it is the master of its own destiny - it's a continuum.
Agreed on all counts, but -and it may just be good PR on the part of the indy movement- Scotland appears to us to be a very open European country, especially compared to England at the moment.

We used to have an Andy in Germany on here who was a naive romantic. It was easy to wind him up by pointing out that the nation state in control of its own borders and future is a creation of the 20th century. And as a concept it died in the 20th century too.
Do you mean "Andy in Sig"? Ironically I've applied for a job in the same town as he comes from.

The logical conclusion of that is for the Scottish parliament to have more powers and more say in the affairs of Westminster, this I'm all in favour of.
I don't entirely agree on that, but it would mean moving the whole of the UK to a more federal system which Westminster will never allow.


So you've not met any extreme Scottish Nationalists. I have, they exist.
Of course they do. Ironically they prove that Scotland is no different from any other country: we all have our right wing extremists...
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
East Germany never became independent: The GDR Dissolved itself, and became a part of a reunified Germany after elections returned parties supporting this, on October the 3rd 1990.
Okay, knock one off my long list of countries that have increased their level of independence - although there is a strong case to be made that the Laender which used to be part of the DDR are more independent as part of a federal Germany than they ever were under the watchful eye of Uncle Russia.
 
Keza Dugdale reckons Corbyn (Dallas) will do a deal with the SNP over indieref II in exchange for propping up his government if it came to that.
 
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