Scotland: what's going to happen?

Discussion in 'News and Current Affairs' started by Pro Tour Punditry, 15 Sep 2018.

  1. I would love to be a Jock

    12 vote(s)
  2. I have no clue, and you Jocks can all sod off

    17 vote(s)
  3. I do not have a TV

    12 vote(s)
  1. downesy

    downesy Über Member

    Me too I'm no nationalist in fact the fewer borders the better is my opinion,but I don't see any other way Scotland (and me) can rid ourselves of a more rightwing and xenophobic Tory party.
    It does grieve me to be thinking this way as I prefer less borders than more,I also think Scotland has a good shot at getting back into the eu in pretty quick order .
    Goggs, Mr Celine, Edwardoka and 5 others like this.
  2. Trouble is, we don't know that England is Scotlands biggest trading partner. It may be, and I'd be surprised if rUK wasn't the biggest single trading partner, but is there a mechanism to measure how much of the goods leaving Scotland does and does not continue out of England via a port?

    Equally, Britain was Ireland's main trading partner at one time, and although it's still a big chunk of their trade they are now working out how to get around Britain. Norway probably traded a lot with Sweden when it was ruled by them, and so on.

    An independent Scotland in the EU would need ports, certainly, and would have to realign its focus, but it would still be part of the largest trading bloc in the world, and have all the advantages of this, including a say in any deals made between the EU and rUK. Scotland's choice seems to be rUK or the EU...
    Goggs likes this.
  3. Diogenes

    Diogenes Opinions, schminions

    The problem is how deeply intertwined the Scottish and English economies are. Look at how many unforeseen consequences have come to light trying to break up a trading union that's barely 40 years old. Any split in the UK will be seismic for business, public services and communities. What might start off as amicable could quickly become bitter as each side inevitably blames the other for unintended ramifications.
  4. Edwardoka

    Edwardoka Facetious Waffler

    I fear you are correct. A few years ago I said regarding the currency question "nah, they wouldn't do something disastrous and idiotic out of spite." and believed it.

    Now, though? I honestly can't predict what utter idiocy our glorious leaders will lead us into next.

    The way things are going we will end up with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister! :wacko:
    (haha, only kidding. there's no way that could happen! right? right? (:cry:))
    Diogenes likes this.
  5. Diogenes

    Diogenes Opinions, schminions

    Do you remember where you were when Reagan got elected? I remember the open-mouthed shock and ridicule in Britain that the USA had actually elected a B-Movie cowboy star famous for being out-acted by a monkey. Get the feeling other countries are going to be looking at us the same way.
    C R, Edwardoka and Andy in Germany like this.
  6. Crackle

    Crackle Squatter

    It's not just about trade, there's a huge tie-up with pension investments, pension funds etc.... What happens to that in any potential separation, particularly if there's no currency unification and why should there be, will make a difference to everyone's pockets and that's before we get to the apportionment of national debt, which you and I have discussed before. The entanglement is massive and deep rooted and Brexit has taught us, almost impossible to sort out.
    Diogenes likes this.
  7. Edwardoka

    Edwardoka Facetious Waffler

    Although I can't find video of it, I remember years ago when Paul Merton went on a rant about Johnson on HIGNFY (ironically the show that made him a household name):
  8. The difference is that while no-one has left a trade bloc before, many countries have become independent, a lot of those from the UK, in fact. They all made it, and in doing so showed that it's possible and manageable. Within the EU it's been achieved by the Czech and Slovak Republics, for example, amicably and without violence. Equally certainly don't know of any former 'colonies' that asked to rejoin the British Empire.

    Just because the Tories and Brexit party are in the hands of a bunch of right-wing populists intending to take the UK off a cliff edge for their own gain, doesn't mean a country becoming independent from another needs to be a similar mess.

    At the same time, looking at the choice Scotland (potentially) has at the moment, I'm not sure which I'd think was the more risky path to take, given the experiences of the last 6 years.
    Goggs and Slick like this.
  9. Crackle

    Crackle Squatter

    Each circumstance is different. How's it going for the Basque separatists or Catalonia. I fail to see how you can argue for the UK being in the EU and Scotland not within the UK. I fail to see any difference between Scottish nationalism or English nationalism but one seems to be good and the other not so good. But as we've seen throughout Europe, nationalism as a movement is destructive and not so good for those indulging in it, otherwise you'd be arguing that Brexit is good.
    Duffy, srw and Diogenes like this.
  10. iandg

    iandg Legendary Member

    The difference I see between Scottish nationalism and English nationalism is that the English national parties are right wing xenophobes. Scottish nationalism is socialist, wants freedom from Westminster and recognises the importance of diversity.
    theclaud, snorri, C R and 5 others like this.
  11. Diogenes

    Diogenes Opinions, schminions

    It's still nationalism at heart and rooted in blaming an external "other" for things going wrong.
  12. Crackle

    Crackle Squatter

    I would agree to a large extent, not completely, because Scottish nationalism is not without it's extremists but each movement has the same thing in common. They weaken the country now on the promise of jam tomorow but they don't know where they're going to get the jam.
  13. Edwardoka

    Edwardoka Facetious Waffler

    Wrote a long snide comment, decided not to post as I'm not nearly as clever as I think I am when I'm sleep deprived.
    I've saved it to review when I'm rested but I suspect it's not worth posting.

    Will say though: there are many ideologies that have been called nationalism and there are many ways nationalism can manifest. Some are uglier than others, and some are treated differently than others, although quite often they're conflated (usually to fit one's agenda).
    Goggs, theclaud, iandg and 3 others like this.
  14. Catalonia is being kept in Spain by force. I can't speak for the Basque country.

    Because the EU is a grouping of independent nations which are still sovereign and look after their own internal affairs, but have agreed to work together on very specific areas, beyond which the EU has no authority. The United Kingdom is a unitary authority where one part of the 'union' is able to dictate to the other three, meddle in internal politics and hold into the reigns of power. My home state of Baden-Württemberg has more power in Germany than the Scottish parliament in the UK. It also has more say in how the Federal grouping of Germany should work, and can make more decisions about its own affairs. I think if the promised changes to the structure of the UK had been delivered after 2014 then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, and Scottish Nationalists would be reduced to a few romantics or right wingers, but unfortunately they weren't.

    The argument for Scotland being independent is partly that there is no reason that it shouldn't be a normal country like the other EU member states.

    This doesn't look like this in Germany, where a lot of people seem very supportive of Scottish independence. Indyref1 left us with the impression of a modern, open and welcoming country.

    The day after Brexit, the Scottish Government moved to reassure EU nationals that they were still welcome in the country. They held a meeting where the Scottish cabinet spoke to EU citizens with an open mike. At the same time the British Government was referring to EU nationals in the UK (and UK nationals in the EU) as "Bargaining chips"

    Seen from here (and I realise we don't get an entirely accurate picture) the only unpleasant nationalists are the ones making Nazi salutes and hurling abuse at Indy marches, and they all seem to be waving Union Flags.

    Right-wing nationalism, the sort of "my country right or wrong" or 'Blood and soil' nationalism currently rearing its ugly head is destructive, but again, I've only come across that in any numbers from British Nationalists.

    The EU only works with the tension between healthy nationalism and awareness of the different and unique cultures of the different nations of Europe, and the need to work together and avoid all of our cultures being destroyed.

    The current right wing populists would do that, indeed, but they are largely acting within countries that are already independent.

    As to nationalist movements that achieved independence, which countries, within Europe could that apply to? The countries which I can think of that became independent in the last century, at least by democratic means, became stronger as a result.

    Which raises the question: why is Scotland different to Norway (independent since 1905); Finland (1917); Iceland (1918); or the Slovak Republic (1993))?
  15. I'd agree there: when I moved to Germany no-one would wave a German flag, although the Bavarians would wave a Bavarian flag. Now we see flags all the time, as a new generation of Germans feels more comfortable with being German. The thing is, we're also more multiracial than we were so it is very common and completely accepted for people to wave the flag of their home country and a German flag together.

    Unfortunately I'm not comfortable waving a British -union- flag, for exactly the reasons @Crackle describes...
    Goggs, theclaud and Edwardoka like this.
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