State of the Planet

Flying_Monkey

Toll Collector on the Road to Nowhere
In 2007 I was told the end date to avoid climate change was 2015. I just can't see it stopped without resorting to geoengineering. The economic and political resistance is too strong. The only other way if some new, clean, abundant and cheap method of electricity generation is perfected, that would make fossil fuel uneconomic. Maybe they will get nuclear fusion working, but even if they do, it might not be cheap.
It's probably true. What's really frustrating is that we never should have got here. Governments and corporations knew the situation in the 1980s. We could have had a much less costly transition to a different energy economy if we'd started in earnest then. Everything now is going to be more drastic and more expensive the longer we leave it.
 

mudsticks

Über Member
It's probably true. What's really frustrating is that we never should have got here. Governments and corporations knew the situation in the 1980s. We could have had a much less costly transition to a different energy economy if we'd started in earnest then. Everything now is going to be more drastic and more expensive the longer we leave it.
Yes in my book, the oil companies, and all the big corps, and governments who knew all this, and suppressed the evidence are the arch criminals in all this.

Yes we should all have been paying more attention as individuals.

Some of us were trying really quite hard..
On many fronts.

But mainly just got accused of being trying, for our pains.

And you can't spend your whole life, and all your money fighting what feels like a losing battle, fought uphill.

Life also has to be lived, albeit in a somewhat greener fashion than most..
But still it's not easy being a low carbon consumer, in a world that makes it very difficult to take alternative routes.

It wouldn't do much good, I know but charging all those fat cat oil bosses, and their ilk with eco-cide would have a ring of justice to it.
 

Flying_Monkey

Toll Collector on the Road to Nowhere
Some of us were trying really quite hard..
On many fronts.

But mainly just got accused of being trying, for our pains.
Yes. But now at least there is a new generation of angry young people who are revitalizing everything. I'm still hopeful, but I'm just realistic enough to know that's it's going to hurt more than it would have done. But there's no alternative if we want to live.
 

Edwardoka

Shambling ruin of a man
Salting the clouds sounds like something Rome would do to Carthage... what happens when those clouds precipitate salt water everywhere? Though increasing the surface albedo would reduce insolation, water vapour is also a potent greenhouse gas.

I can see absolutely no side effects from deliberately creating algal blooms. Apart from the ecological disaster, mind you.

Carbon capture and storage would be the correct solution - if only there was a form of life that acted as a carbon sink. I can't think of any natural process for sequestering carbon, though, much less one that captures carbon and turns it into fuel. I guess we'll have to cut down the rainforest to build these massive carbon-capturing power plants.

If these are the best ideas we have, we're more screwed than I thought.

Edit: that's not an attack on you, @SpokeyDokey, just that if the top geoengineering minds are coming up with "let's salt the earth, reinvent trees and cover the oceans in algae" we're in a pretty poor place.
 

stowie

Guru
Salting the clouds sounds like something Rome would do to Carthage... what happens when those clouds precipitate salt water everywhere? Though increasing the surface albedo would reduce insolation, water vapour is also a potent greenhouse gas.

I can see absolutely no side effects from deliberately creating algal blooms. Apart from the ecological disaster, mind you.

Carbon capture and storage would be the correct solution - if only there was a form of life that acted as a carbon sink. I can't think of any natural process for sequestering carbon, though, much less one that captures carbon and turns it into fuel. I guess we'll have to cut down the rainforest to build these massive carbon-capturing power plants.

If these are the best ideas we have, we're more screwed than I thought.

Edit: that's not an attack on you, @SpokeyDokey, just that if the top geoengineering minds are coming up with "let's salt the earth, reinvent trees and cover the oceans in algae" we're in a pretty poor place.
It is worth exploring every option. But the danger is that, when we hear that "the boffins" are working on a plan to counter climate change we collectively heave a sigh of relief and don't bother thinking about it any further.

Geo engineering sounds difficult and fraught with unintended consequences. Tinkering around with vastly complicated and interconnected systems sounds a bit... brave...

I do equate equate action with pollution and climate change with dieting. Bear with me here... The actual most effective strategies are really conceptually simple but generally deeply unpalatable for people as they involve a lot of change. So our inventive minds come up with a whole bunch of enormously complicated strategies which are probably utterly ineffective but make people feel they are doing something.
 

mudsticks

Über Member
Yes. But now at least there is a new generation of angry young people who are revitalizing everything. I'm still hopeful, but I'm just realistic enough to know that's it's going to hurt more than it would have done. But there's no alternative if we want to live.
And us angry older people are still backing them up .

Hence women in red dresses putting themselves at risk of throttling by privileged white men at their self congratulatory dinner parties.

The oil companies have known about the threat of climate change for decades.

They even did research themselves that exposed the threat - then spent years covering it up.
Whilst rubbishing the findings of independent climate scientists.

Although a reasonably well educated child of nine could tell you there would likely be dire consequences to digging up and then burning all those fossil fuels.

The capitalists who profit from all this are equally complicit in this eco-cide.
 

mudsticks

Über Member
What got us here is tinkering with nature far beyond what we really understood and on a far grander scale than ever before. I fear this is more of the same. I think the solution has to be in getting closer to nature and understanding and working with natural systems more closely.
Which is what hippy tree hugging organic farmers like myself have been saying for years ..

To almost resounding derision from the mainstream.

But suddenly our talk of soil carbon sequestration, biodiversity, better nutrition, avoiding eco system collapse through eschewing oil derived artificial pesticides, and fertilizers, whilst maintaining good productivity, and soil conservation in the long term has become interesting - even to some folks in defra ..

But boy has it been an uphill struggle.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
This is a story. A large number of republicans in the state senate within Oregon disappear to climate change legislation can't be passed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48737711

Democrats hold 18 of the 30 seats in the state senate, but 20 senators have to be present for a vote to take place.

On Thursday, the 11 Republicans who currently hold seats failed to show up for floor proceedings after negotiations broke down, blocking the legislation's progress.
 

Edwardoka

Shambling ruin of a man
This is a story. A large number of republicans in the state senate within Oregon disappear to climate change legislation can't be passed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48737711
Bloody hell. When you said disappear I thought you meant they refused to turn up on the day the bill was to be voted on, but no, they've literally done a runner and crossed state lines! Not a fan of the talk of "militias" to protect them from the police either.

Has America always been this batsh*t insane?
(In case you're wondering, the answer is an emphatic "yes". If you don't believe me, listen to The Dollop, an american history podcast.)
 

Johnno260

Über Member
Location
East Sussex
Where I work they all deny climate change, I commented on watching a Attenborough docu which said we're living beyond our means as in we can't produce enough food, clean water and energy to sustain the current population of the world, it's projected to hit 9 billion by the 2040-2050s..

I was told it's a load of scare mongering stupidity we can just grow more food, I said where? you can't just farm the same land all the time without damaging it's ability to produce food, and clean water doesn't grow on trees, they said use sea water which can be used but desalination isn't simple and it's very energy hungry and produces horrible by products.

I said maybe if they had kids they could maybe see beyond their own needs, I said I'm very concerned about the world my children will inherit, turns out it's typical human short sightedness, response was why should we care.. until attitudes change then the worlds basically screwed.

It's the same people who think I'm stupid for taking works recycling to the dump, and for commuting by bike or partial commuting to my place of work, cyclists are the issue in their eyes, even though air quality in parts of T Wells is horrific..
 

SpokeyDokey

Nearly 63 - oh dear!
Moderator
Where I work they all deny climate change, I commented on watching a Attenborough docu which said we're living beyond our means as in we can't produce enough food, clean water and energy to sustain the current population of the world, it's projected to hit 9 billion by the 2040-2050s..

I was told it's a load of scare mongering stupidity we can just grow more food, I said where? you can't just farm the same land all the time without damaging it's ability to produce food, and clean water doesn't grow on trees, they said use sea water which can be used but desalination isn't simple and it's very energy hungry and produces horrible by products.

I said maybe if they had kids they could maybe see beyond their own needs, I said I'm very concerned about the world my children will inherit, turns out it's typical human short sightedness, response was why should we care.. until attitudes change then the worlds basically screwed.

It's the same people who think I'm stupid for taking works recycling to the dump, and for commuting by bike or partial commuting to my place of work, cyclists are the issue in their eyes, even though air quality in parts of T Wells is horrific..
Just out of interest as I used to live there - which parts of TW have air quality issues?
 
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