State of the Planet

meta lon

Guru
Let's consider this too. The 15 largest ships in the world pollute as much as 760 million cars worldwide . Each ship burns 10 000 tons of diesel in a single trip from Asia to Europe, and there are 3500 of them .
Of course, this is never mentioned on the news is it?

If that's true that's truly shocking..
Bring back slavery and rowing power!! Or maybe we could solve the dole problem?
Just kidding my easily offended friends...even the one's that dont want to be my friend:whistle:
 

Flying_Monkey

Toll Collector on the Road to Nowhere
Like i said before i'm not an scientist
You probably should have stopped here.

however before i put anything to bed i want to know how they get that figures, i get email's with 99% claims everyday useally because there trying to sell me something bottom line is how can you claim to have reliable date if you don;t know how that data has been produced?
Do you really want to know? Because it's not that hard to find out, if you really do. I suspect, however, that either 1. you can't admit that you don't understand; or more likely 2. you have no interest in finding out the truth because that would involve challenging your politics and your prejudices about the world, so you'd rather just keep claiming that no-one can prove anything to your satisfaction. It's an all too common phenonemon, and one which, as @Beebo was kind enough to point out, I've had a fair amount of experience in dealing with.

As someone who used to teach Environmental Management at university level, I am quite well-equiped to provide you some basic resources should your question really be in good faith. But you could just find your objection(s) here: https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php and read on.
 

Rusty Nails

We remember
Location
Here and there
You probably should have stopped here.



Do you really want to know? Because it's not that hard to find out, if you really do. I suspect, however, that either 1. you can't admit that you don't understand; or more likely 2. you have no interest in finding out the truth because that would involve challenging your politics and your prejudices about the world, so you'd rather just keep claiming that no-one can prove anything to your satisfaction. It's an all too common phenonemon, and one which, as @Beebo was kind enough to point out, I've had a fair amount of experience in dealing with.

As someone who used to teach Environmental Management at university level, I am quite well-equiped to provide you some basic resources should your question really be in good faith. But you could just find your objection(s) here: https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php and read on.

Pathetic. If you were that certain you were right you'd have come up with more than just 197 facts.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
You probably should have stopped here.
BS, if i bring my bike, car, whatever to a repairman i at least expect the repairman to be able to explain what he needs to do and why. Even tough i'm not an bike, car, whatever repairman myself. Why can't i expect the same from a scientist according to you?


Y
Do you really want to know? Because it's not that hard to find out, if you really do. I suspect, however, that either 1. you can't admit that you don't understand; or more likely 2. you have no interest in finding out the truth because that would involve challenging your politics and your prejudices about the world, so you'd rather just keep claiming that no-one can prove anything to your satisfaction. It's an all too common phenonemon, and one which, as @Beebo was kind enough to point out, I've had a fair amount of experience in dealing with.

As someone who used to teach Environmental Management at university level, I am quite well-equiped to provide you some basic resources should your question really be in good faith. But you could just find your objection(s) here: https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php and read on.
So you point to a website, so i open the website, click a few links hey surprise! they link to a research present it as a fact and pretent like their nose bleeds..(a fact is a fact if it is undisputed. Like water is wet, like the climate has changed before.
You're not very convincing at all. But i guess it's easyer excluding eveyone who disagrees, why would you do an effort to prove you're right or maybe, very scary you might have to admit you're wrong sometimes. Some thing might never change, is scientist admitting they are wrong sometimes one of them?
 

Johnno260

Über Member
Location
East Sussex
I guess to resolve this by waiting, and when the planets wrecked you have irrefutable proof we did it.

The climate has changed before, but over a period of time, life then has time to adapt to the changes, unless it’s a something along the lines of a meteor strike or super volcano eruption.

If you look up how many animal species are becoming extinct and the rate of decline it’s obvious.

Bee decline is one, we will get on fine when those little guys disappear...
 

mudsticks

Über Member
BS, if i bring my bike, car, whatever to a repairman i at least expect the repairman to be able to explain what he needs to do and why. Even tough i'm not an bike, car, whatever repairman myself. Why can't i expect the same from a scientist according to you?



So you point to a website, so i open the website, click a few links hey surprise! they link to a research present it as a fact and pretent like their nose bleeds..(a fact is a fact if it is undisputed. Like water is wet, like the climate has changed before.
You're not very convincing at all. But i guess it's easyer excluding eveyone who disagrees, why would you do an effort to prove you're right or maybe, very scary you might have to admit you're wrong sometimes. Some thing might never change, is scientist admitting they are wrong sometimes one of them?
I am more than aware of the utter futility of arguing with climate change deniers, despite there being overwhelming evidence, that its happening, supplied by those who have very little vested interest.

Who are then shouted down, or rubbished by those who would prefer to see the status quo maintained - either for their own convenience, or profit.

But a questions for you.

How can our atmosphere not be affected in some way, when we have added so much extra CO2 and other greenhouse gases to it????

That would be very bad science - a reasonably intelligent seven year old could tell you about cause and effect.


Of course we don't know exactly how all this is going to pan out, but all evidence points to man made climate change.

Its just scientists deal in accurate analysis, and proper numbers, not hyperbole, so it's unlikely they are going to say 100% anything when making predictions - that's not how science works.

We are going to run out of fossil fuels at some point, already they are harder to find and extract, we have evidence that burning them is bad for just about everything apart from mans selfish short term convenience.
So why don't we just move away from them now, before it's all too late.

The technology is already there.

The human willpower, politics, and enough people giving a fekk, arent quite yet.

But thankfully that is changing, at last


You talk of 'admitting error'
I think the main problem is a collective denial of the 'error' of our over consumption, our profligate use of the resources of future generations - one of which should have been a more stable climate.

If we can admit we've gone wrong, , and shift to a better way of being, then we might stand a chance.
 
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MrPie

Telling it like it is since 1971
Location
Perth, Australia
It's easy to shout 'Sceptic, burn him!', then catch your polluting bus/car/train home, fire up your central heating, turn on all the lights, turn on your computer and keyboard warrior the sceptics, not take that family holiday flight, not make full use of what the Western world has to offer. But what are you actually doing about it? Are you prepared to switch your electricity off, switch your heating off, not use any fossil fuel burning transport, etc, etc. That is what it is going to take. Are you ready? Well, are you?
 

FishFright

More wheels than sense
It's easy to shout 'Sceptic, burn him!', then catch your polluting bus/car/train home, fire up your central heating, turn on all the lights, turn on your computer and keyboard warrior the sceptics, not take that family holiday flight, not make full use of what the Western world has to offer. But what are you actually doing about it? Are you prepared to switch your electricity off, switch your heating off, not use any fossil fuel burning transport, etc, etc. That is what it is going to take. Are you ready? Well, are you?
I know all the things I do is a tiny dent but at least it's dent, which beats doing nothing or denying it's happening because la la la la I'm not listening to evidence when I can make things up as I go along which is at least as good as science and facts.
 

mudsticks

Über Member
It's easy to shout 'Sceptic, burn him!', then catch your polluting bus/car/train home, fire up your central heating, turn on all the lights, turn on your computer and keyboard warrior the sceptics, not take that family holiday flight, not make full use of what the Western world has to offer. But what are you actually doing about it? Are you prepared to switch your electricity off, switch your heating off, not use any fossil fuel burning transport, etc, etc. That is what it is going to take. Are you ready? Well, are you?
You're very right - the world is set up in such a way to make it very difficult to live anything approaching a 'green lifestyle'
Its is down to governments to instigate change as much as the individual.

But until individuals, and institutions, including governments, who will only move when the electorate make them ,- until we all acknowledge the truth about climate change not much will happen - or at least not fast enough .

CC is happening whether we choose to acknowledge, or recognise it , or not, its just pure science - yes climate systems are hard to predict and model so its always hard to know for sure exactly what will happen.
But science is not prey to the 'wishing away' of humans - that would be great really wouldn't it?? We could all just screw up our eyes and do some magic spells.

But this stuff has been known about and predicted for years, by scientists, only it wasn't convenient to listen .
It doesn't sit well with short term government nor short term profit making, and easy fossil fuel supplied convenience, which drives much of our economy and 'western' lifestyle.

All this stuff would be true whether I'd only just realised it last week, or as in my case i was switched onto it over thirty years ago.

But at the risk of committing that other current 'mortal sin' of virtue signalling.


i've only taken one flight in the last 25 years.

I've actively campaigned on climate change, and many other related issues.

i minimally drive a small car for work - prefer to cycle where possible.

buy mainly second hand goods - and not much new stuff -
I'v helped set up a local recycling centre - and local composting scheme in this area - before they became 'mainstream'
Plus being involved in all manner of other 'ecological' projects

I farm vegetables and eggs organically to sell direct, and supplement my income by teaching a useful form of body work locally.
I buy organic, and local food where i can .

I do use a tractor, and some machinery, but try not to over cultivate as doing this liberates more carbon from the soil.
I'm always trying to find ways of minimising the environmental effects of my farming activities

I run training courses in this method, and campaign with others for this form of agroecological food production to become more mainstream - its having some effect.

We heat our house ( trailer) using locally sourced wood, and have bought electricity from a company that only supplies 100% renewable energy for the last 20 years.

Limited having children to just two - but even that's possibly a bit excessive. - but hey they're nice kids

Holidays usually involve going by train, or other public transport to somewhere beautiful in UK or Europe, and then cycle touring, or hill walking.


So no, you're right its not easy to have a 'green ' lifestyle, we are encouraged to endlessly want more - and compete with each other for more -
going against that to a certain extent - although i wouldn't claim anything like 'perfection' makes for an 'interesting; life - but not a dull one i can assure you.
 

Flying_Monkey

Toll Collector on the Road to Nowhere
So you point to a website, so i open the website, click a few links hey surprise! they link to a research present it as a fact and pretent like their nose bleeds..(a fact is a fact if it is undisputed. Like water is wet, like the climate has changed before.
You're not very convincing at all. But i guess it's easyer excluding eveyone who disagrees, why would you do an effort to prove you're right or maybe, very scary you might have to admit you're wrong sometimes. Some thing might never change, is scientist admitting they are wrong sometimes one of them?
So, in summary, it is exactly as I said: you don't really know very much and you don't want to know any more. So I won't waste any more of my time.
 

mudsticks

Über Member
What veggies would you recommend a total novice trying to grow, and the soil in my area is very clay like.
Swiss chard or leaf beet for greens,

Any kind of bean, Runner French, or broad, for summer.

Sugarsnap peas.. The sort where you eat the whole thing.

Beetroot.

Lettuce, and other salad,mizuna, rocket etc. but only sow, a few seeds every fortnight.

Onions from sets.

All of these I would start in modules / pots in good quality growing medium
(watch the mice on your peas /beans) then transplant them.
When rooted out.

Council green waste compost on your soil.
Fork out the perennial weeds - nettles docks etc.

Get yourself a good sharp. hoe (wolf push and pull are great)
And hoe before the annual weeds get beyond seedling stage.

And or mulch with more compost, or whatever else you can get around the plants.

Don't try to grow direct sown carrots or parsnips yet.

They won't work until you get your soil right.

Go out at night with headtorch and scissors, in spring..
You'll catch a lot of slugs /snails that way.

Start with a small patch.

Cover the ground with black plastic (silage sheet) overwinter.. Well weighed down with bags of soil, tyres or whatever,
Gives you an early start, on drier ground, with fewer weeds
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Well-Known Member
I am more than aware of the utter futility of arguing with climate change deniers, despite there being overwhelming evidence, that its happening, supplied by those who have very little vested interest.
I'm not denying climate change, almost no scientist is, as it is a fact that the climate changes. However i'm skeptical amongst a lot of scientist and other critical voices that it is caused or sped up by human and in addition that co2 is an important ingredient in this mix. A car or boat exhaust has far more damaging output for example. I also hate the way this discussion is being catties out, you and others brand me 'as someone who denies climate change' while that is'nt true, the world is'nt all black and white so i'm not fully on the side of the climate hoaxers neither on the side of the deniers.
Who are then shouted down, or rubbished by those who would prefer to see the status quo maintained - either for their own convenience, or profit.

But a questions for you.

How can our atmosphere not be affected in some way, when we have added so much extra CO2 and other greenhouse gases to it????
That would be very bad science - a reasonably intelligent seven year old could tell you about cause and effect.


Of course we don't know exactly how all this is going to pan out, but all evidence points to man made climate change.

Its just scientists deal in accurate analysis, and proper numbers, not hyperbole, so it's unlikely they are going to say 100% anything when making predictions - that's not how science works.
How much Extra CO2 are you talking about then? Because partucally that number seems to vary a lot also it is in important fuel for plants, i would say the gasses that only cause damage to humans and plants are far more dangerous.
We are going to run out of fossil fuels at some point, already they are harder to find and extract, we have evidence that burning them is bad for just about everything apart from mans selfish short term convenience.
So why don't we just move away from them now, before it's all too late.
Totally agree with that but that is an different discussion,
The technology is already there.

The human willpower, politics, and enough people giving a fekk, arent quite yet.

But thankfully that is changing, at last
which technology or technologies are you talking about?
You talk of 'admitting error'
I think the main problem is a collective denial of the 'error' of our over consumption, our profligate use of the resources of future generations - one of which should have been a more stable climate.

If we can admit we've gone wrong, , and shift to a better way of being, then we might stand a chance.
So you're linking something measureable like we have 10 liters of gas but we've have used up 5 liters already to climate change, interesting can you explain how you link these two?

It's easy to shout 'Sceptic, burn him!', then catch your polluting bus/car/train home, fire up your central heating, turn on all the lights, turn on your computer and keyboard warrior the sceptics, not take that family holiday flight, not make full use of what the Western world has to offer. But what are you actually doing about it? Are you prepared to switch your electricity off, switch your heating off, not use any fossil fuel burning transport, etc, etc. That is what it is going to take. Are you ready? Well, are you?
As long as China is allowed to be seen as ''emerging market'' or something like that and can set his autograph under a climate deal with no actions expected from them at all those things are not gonna help a thing. That's why Trump and Canada pulled from it, it is a bad deal. As it allows China to join to feel good boat with minimal efforts as one of the biggest sources.

I know all the things I do is a tiny dent but at least it's dent, which beats doing nothing or denying it's happening because la la la la I'm not listening to evidence when I can make things up as I go along which is at least as good as science and facts.
You're very right - the world is set up in such a way to make it very difficult to live anything approaching a 'green lifestyle'
Its is down to governments to instigate change as much as the individual.

But until individuals, and institutions, including governments, who will only move when the electorate make them ,- until we all acknowledge the truth about climate change not much will happen - or at least not fast enough .
It is very expensive to own something like a farm or with a large garden, but if you have or can have a reasonable plot of land to grow vegetables on it takes work and effort but is possible to be self-subtainable. If you eat meat it's more complicated because i believe you not allowed to slaughter animals yourself but i'm not to informed about the exact rules on this matter.
CC is happening whether we choose to acknowledge, or recognise it , or not, its just pure science - yes climate systems are hard to predict and model so its always hard to know for sure exactly what will happen.
But science is not prey to the 'wishing away' of humans - that would be great really wouldn't it?? We could all just screw up our eyes and do some magic spells.
It has never stopped happening, yet we do exactly what you tell is bad, because the leading thesis seem to be ''Whatever IPCC related scientist say is right'' While you say here it is hard to predict so in other words like most science we don't know yet. Is'nt it very dangerous then to accept one model as the absolute reality? And discard any others or divide it in a black and white camp like ''climate deniers or climate hoaxers''?
 

Johnno260

Über Member
Location
East Sussex
Swiss chard or leaf beet for greens,

Any kind of bean, Runner French, or broad, for summer.

Sugarsnap peas.. The sort where you eat the whole thing.

Beetroot.

Lettuce, and other salad,mizuna, rocket etc. but only sow, a few seeds every fortnight.

Onions from sets.

All of these I would start in modules / pots in good quality growing medium
(watch the mice on your peas /beans) then transplant them.
When rooted out.

Council green waste compost on your soil.
Fork out the perennial weeds - nettles docks etc.

Get yourself a good sharp. hoe (wolf push and pull are great)
And hoe before the annual weeds get beyond seedling stage.

And or mulch with more compost, or whatever else you can get around the plants.

Don't try to grow direct sown carrots or parsnips yet.

They won't work until you get your soil right.

Go out at night with headtorch and scissors, in spring..
You'll catch a lot of slugs /snails that way.

Start with a small patch.

Cover the ground with black plastic (silage sheet) overwinter.. Well weighed down with bags of soil, tyres or whatever,
Gives you an early start, on drier ground, with fewer weeds
Thanks this helps a lot, it's something I really want to do this year.

I'm lucky with the slugs, my patio gets loads but the hedgehogs soon clear them away!
 

mudsticks

Über Member
Yay for hedgehogs.. They're great.. Only we don't get so many round here, on account of all the bad boy badgers who eat them.

Ducks are great at clearing slugs and snails too.. Cos they seek out the eggs as well, and break the life cycle.. I'll sometimes pen them in an empty polytunnel to clear it before summer crops go in.
 
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