The Post-Brexit Thread

raleighnut

Guru
Location
On 3 Wheels
"Thick as mince.. and racist..."

I don't consider those shown at Brexit parties to be typical of 17 million Leave voters anymore than I consider those on here who call people who disagree with them thick, northern racists, gammon etc. to be representative of millions of Remain voters.

Why would I stick you on ignore? I am open to hearing opinions that are different from my own. It has taken 3 years to get anywhere near to leaving the EU so I honestly don't think you can say Remain voices have not been heard in the last 3 years. Too late now of course, but I wonder if Remain posters on here think it would have been preferable, in retrospect, to accept the result of the referendum immediately and campaigned for a very soft Brexit instead. Most Leavers are not unreasonable and might well have accepted an outcome that honoured the result whilst acknowledging the closeness of the vote.
Why should we accept laws we have no say in, pre-referendum we had a voice in making those laws (quite a loud one actually) but now?
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
Most Leavers are not unreasonable and might well have accepted an outcome that honoured the result whilst acknowledging the closeness of the vote.
Really? I thought they all voted for no deal and knew exactly what they were voting for at all times.
 

newfhouse

Elitist lefty
Location
CR8
Really? I thought they all voted for no deal and knew exactly what they were voting for at all times.
Well quite. Although unpalatable to me, Chequers was a compromise deal, the subsequent May deal was a compromise, Labour’s customs union proposal was a compromise, to name just three. None made it past the Let’s Go WTO ERG zealots in parliament because Brexit wasn’t Brexity enough for them.
 

mudsticks

Veteran
To say you are p*ssed off is fine as a soundbite, but what exactly does this mean in practice? Will you treat those who you know voted Leave differently to those you know voted Remain?
By the end of it, (the last election) I believe most people knew they were being lied to, they just didn't care.

They were bored of it, just wanted to #getbrexitdone

The referendum was a badly thought through idea in the first place, and certainly didn't give people accurate information about what they were voting on.

Leave played on prejudice, xenophobia and misinformation, and they were allowed to do that.

But it looks like that's the kind of country lots of people want to live in, they've just voted for more of it.

I'll carry on treating other human beings as human beings , I try not to allow my 'feelings' about politics to affect that.

If I come across the racism, or bigotry, which very much seem to be on the rise since all this, then I will challenge it.

Which is stressful sometimes, but its my obligation to do that as a member of the muddy 'elite'.
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
To say you are p*ssed off is fine as a soundbite, but what exactly does this mean in practice? Will you treat those who you know voted Leave differently to those you know voted Remain?
I had four reps in yesterday from different sectors of the industry I work in. All of them said they had never experienced anything as bad as it is at the moment and that they were being told the same by every customer they had been to see.
One of them told me that three of his customers had shut the doors this year so far, they had hoped that things would have improved after Xmas, but instead they've got worse. Another was telling me about one of their suppliers, the biggest supplier of their type in the UK, who for the first time in their history posted a loss in January.
Then there was the other one, who was being accompanied by the forth. She said she didn't know why no one was spending, I replied that we all knew why, but that there was nothing we could do about it now. But we're a strong country, she said, we're not going to sink into the sea. I wasn't pissed off with her particularly, just weary, I don't believe I treated her any differently although I suspect that she went away with the impression that I was, because rather obviously I said things to her that I had no reason to say to the others. Her company was posting some of the worst figures in their history but she refused to accept that what she knew was the reason and said was the reason, was actually the reason. As an aside she then went on to deny climate change.
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
People who voted for the National Socialists were often taken in by the propaganda and persuaded to vote against their own best interests. Of course they should have looked more closely at what the NS party ways actually planning and doing, and stood against the rising xenophobia and anti-semitism but they saw "employment" and "more money for healthcare" and of course "Take our sovereignty back" and the majority of the press were pumping out pro-NS propaganda and people fell for it.
I think Hitler was able to play on genuine grievances. Versailles, though understandable particular considering what the French had suffered, was never going to lead to long-term peace in Europe. Germany forced to disarm whilst the former allies didn't despite assurances they would follow suit. Mass unemployment without the social welfare to ease the pain.

There may be some parallels in blaming foreigners (or 'others' like the Jews in Germany) for the country's ills and the leave campaign, but the main difference is British grievances against the EU were figments of leavers' imaginations invented by politicians and a willing press with another agenda. Turkey and refugees come to mind.
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
I am a realist and never expected every voter to have read and examined fully all the arguments pro and con Brexit so I am not all that surprised or disappointed that they didn't, and I am sure that all politicians knew that this would be the case.
It's been rather dramatically demonstrated on a number of occasions that a lot of politicians didn't, and still don't, have a clue what many aspects of EU membership mean. As for pros and cons, well, we're still waiting for one side of that argument to step up.
I've said it before, my understanding, scant though it is, is far better than it was at the time of the ref, and I can accept that many voted for the promises made and due to the conditions they had to live in.
Where we appear to part ways is in what has occurred in the years following the vote. Nothing promised was deliverable, everything that was predicted by the vast majority of leaders from all sectors of the the UK machine (much of which we can see happening already) was and is dismissed as Project Fear, leave leaders didn't double down on promises made they said things which totally contradicted what they had said before and they did it again and again and again, each time getting more and more extreme. Every step of the way leave voters followed them and now look where we are, the UK on its knees before a government that is clear in its determination to strip away power and rights from any but themselves. We knew it was coming, we were warned that it was coming, it's pretty unforgivable that enough people allowed and enabled it.
I think we're in a very bad and dangerous place right now and we're powerless to do anything about it, and there are many from the left, right and centre that are responsible for it.
 
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Milkfloat

An Peanut
Location
Midlands
I don't blame people for voting in 2016 to Leave as I saw it as a protest vote by the unheard masses and a frankly terrible job by Remain, probably because they thought they had it in the bag. Although, I must admit I was pretty narked off* when it happened. However, I do blame those that for the 3.5 years after allowed themselves to be continually lied to despite real facts and evidence being made available for them and continued to support Brexit and allow themselves to be hoodwinked by a bunch of charlatans and actually voted them into power overwhelmingly. The turkeys actually voted for Christmas.

* Actually I was totally and utterly (insert words that would get me a total ban) by the whole thing.
 

mudsticks

Veteran
It's been rather dramatically demonstrated on a number of occasions that a lot of politicians didn't, and still don't, have a clue what many aspects of EU membership mean. As for pros and cons, well, we're still waiting for one side of that argument to step up.
I've said it before, my understanding, scant though it is, is far better than it was at the time of the ref, and I can accept that many voted for the promises made and due to the conditions they had to live in.
Where we appear to part ways in what has occurred in the years following the vote. Nothing promised was deliverable, everything that was predicted by the vast majority of leaders from all sectors of the the UK machine (much of which we can see happening already) was and is dismissed as Project Fear, leave leaders didn't double down on promises made they said things which totally contradicted what they had said before and they did it again and again and again, each time getting more and more extreme. Every step of the way leave voters followed them and now look where we are, the UK on its knees before a government that is clear in its determination to strip away power and rights from any but themselves. We knew it was coming, we were warned that it was coming, it's pretty unforgivable that enough people allowed and enabled it.
I think we're in a very bad and dangerous place right now and we're powerless to do anything about it, and there are many from the left, right and centre that are responsible for it.
I'd mostly agree.
Even one piece of news from yesterday,

The chancellor stepping down because he wouldn't sack all his advisors and accept those put in place by the pm, would have had the country aghast at this blatant move to consolidate power at the top.

Now?? Barely noticed by the vast majority.

We have become a pathetically apolitical, politically illiterate even, in this country, and now we are paying the price.
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
the UK on its knees before a government that is clear in its determination to strip away power and rights from any but themselves.
There is a slight glimmer of hope here, as one thing the EU has repeatedly said, and was emphasised in German govt circles yesterday is the maintenance of a level playing field (ghastly term makes me think of Eton for some reason!). The Brexiteers and sadly the British right in general have a reputation when it comes to economics of having the honesty of second-hand car salesmen.

The EU is not going to allow a race to the bottom with trade being predicated on the diminishment of rights in order to gain economic advantage. In short the British will not be allowed to cheat by dumping or otherwise undercutting fair competition by diverging from EU standards whether environment or conditions.

This surely must put a brake on just what this government can actually do if it wants to avoid punitive tariffs.
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
There is a slight glimmer of hope here, as one thing the EU has repeatedly said, and was emphasised in German govt circles yesterday is the maintenance of a level playing field (ghastly term makes me think of Eton for some reason!). The Brexiteers and sadly the British right in general have a reputation when it comes to economics of having the honesty of second-hand car salesmen.

The EU is not going to allow a race to the bottom with trade being predicated on the diminishment of rights in order to gain economic advantage. In short the British will not be allowed to cheat by dumping or otherwise undercutting fair competition by diverging from EU standards whether environment or conditions.

This surely must put a brake on just what this government can actually do if it wants to avoid punitive tariffs.
Wouldn't that rather depend on the direction the UK decides to take? There is a chance that when we get round the table some adults might finally take the lead and sensible heads may rule the day. However, if it wasn't clear before it should be following yesterday's developments, anyone that believed that Johnson's big majority would lead to a more measured approach to negotiations was being utterly deluded. And, as has been pointed out previously, we're pretty firmly off and running with the blame the EU when we don't get what we want.
 
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