university choices

[alecstilleyedye]

eldest daughter is doing gcse options at the mo, and with her being quite talented and hard working and knowing what she wants to do in life (unlike me, who is still trying to work that one out), we've discussed universities.

she's keen on ppe at oxford, with perhaps a second choice of a place at one of the russell group universities i.e. the ones that were universities before all the various polytechnics and colleges adopted university status.

i'm minded that there's no point having a 'safe' second choice of one of the newer unis, as the amount of debt for a degree from one of them is just not worth it, whereas a degree from oxford seems reasonable value for money, should she make the standard. it's worth noting that someone from her school has been offered a place on that exact course, so it remains a tangible possibility, rather than just an aspiration. it seems funny to me that my old uni (sheffield) would ever be a second choice option, but there you go, she's not the lazy bum i was at school.

the point is that, should she fall short (aaa required for oxford, aab for sheffield), she's going to be either needing a lot of luck during clearing, or taking another year redoing her a levels and recalibrating her targets.

without getting too political about it (and there are so many political strands that could be pulled at here), does the fact that a second-rate uni can charge as much as a decent one make aiming high essential? i can't help feeling we're doing our young people a disservice by encouraging them to go to third-tier universities and doing academic subjects. the old polytechnics were excellent for vocational courses and were a genuine alternative if you didn't get the results you needed at a level (i would have ended up doing travel and tourism at bournemouth if i hadn't made it to sheffield uni); these days you're effectively paying colnago money for a carrera bike, so to speak.

or am i talking out of my hat and letting old prejudices cloud my judgement? it's not like my degree from a russell group uni has been of any great value in the twenty odd years i've had it (which will change if i get on a teacher training course, see other thread) so maybe even those unis are just too expensive, given the lack of any guarantee of work when you leave.

all tales from those who've faced the same conundrum welcome…

 

[Becs]

I'd say aim high 1st time round then take a gap year and reassess if she doesn't get the grades. 2nd time around I'd include a back up option of a more accessible course but still at a good uni. Sounds like she's unlikely to be looking at BCC offers and below anyway. This is the approach I was recommended to take when applying to vet school where all 6 unis offering the course wanted AAA and a myriad of work experience and extracurricular stuff. I agree with you that with the current fees and doing a traditional course like PPE the only way to get value for money is to go to an internationally recognised Russel group uni AND do well there (2.1 or above). That said not all new uni's are equal and there are some good ones (UWE and Oxford Brooks have their strengths for example). If she wants to do well she might as well aim high and be prepared to take a gap year (and make use of it). However I do agree that uni is not the be all and end all but if she's going there with a clear purpose then it's not worth accepting a back up option 1st time round.
P.S. Bristol was brilliant and a v good back up to Oxbridge.

 

[vernon]

I think that you are being unfair on non Russell group universities by using a one size fits all criticism. Not all courses are equal and there are some departments within Russell group universities that are not particularly good just as there are outstanding departments found in the new generation of universities. For instance, I'd place Sheffield Hallam University's school of education way ahead of Sheffield University's school of education.

Yes, there are some courses that should never have seen the light of day but I think that you are letting the perceived elitism of Russel Group universities from two decades ago cloud your judgement.

One or two of the new generation of universities have had their wings clipped and there's one or two which might go under but market forces and hopefully better careers advice will steer youngsters in the right direction.

 

[alecstilleyedye]

she likes bristol, and having visited it myself, i'm sure it's an excellent second choice, or even first.

she made me laugh though, "is london school of economics any good"

vernon: iirc twenty years ago you did the pgce at a polytechnic, so its no surprise that sheff hallam is better for this than the uni. manchester metropolitan is similarly good in that respect these days.

 

[vernon]

she likes bristol, and having visited it myself, i'm sure it's an excellent second choice, or even first.

she made me laugh though, "is london school of economics any good"

vernon: iirc twenty years ago you did the pgce at a polytechnic, so its no surprise that sheff hallam is better for this than the uni. manchester metropolitan is similarly good in that respect these days.

You are so very wrong.

I did my PGCE at Leeds University in 1984. My wife did hers at Sheffield University in 1981. There's a long history of teacher training within Russell League Universities.

There's some extremely poor PGCE course delivered by the new generation of universities whose admission criteria seems to be the ability to pass the mirror test.

 

[PpPete]

Worth thinking very carefully about other choices if applying for Oxbridge. No 1 son has just been rejected by Cambridge for Engineering despite predicted 3 x A*. Has easier offers from Bath & Swansea, still waiting to hear from Durham and Warwick.

 

[biggs682]

best university has got to be the university of life

 

[alecstilleyedye]

best university has got to be the university of life

but you don't get to graduate before you die though…

 

[gaz]

There is more to further education than the name of the university you went to.
Perfectly good courses can be had at the old polytechnics.

What is important is being happy, choosing the right course, campus and city/town is what will in the long run make you happy.

Something to also consider is how will the job market be in a decades time when she is ready to leave?
I only left uni a few years ago, and most of my friends are still not in 'decent' jobs. Choosing a course which may be a second option but will have better opportunities after completing may be a better idea.

Either way, it's a complex choice to make and only one thing is important, her happiness.

 

[PK99]

There is more to further education than the name of the university you went to.
Perfectly good courses can be had at the old polytechnics.

.

Very true, a mid 20's teacher i know commented that Oxford (Geography) taught her to read books, but (?) Nottingham Trent (Animation) taught an ex boy friend to program computers and being an ex poly the focus was on teaching no independent study, he is working in the city earning £80k plus

 

[alecstilleyedye]

horses for courses indeed.

my daughter doesn't want the ppe course at oxford for any reason related to snobbery, but because she harbours political ambitions and oxford not only offers the course she wants but also the chance to network with people with similar ambitions; it's a course/uni combination that's overrepresented among westminster mps. she's left wing, politically, although she represented the green party in year 7 mock elections (the chap who won is the person who's got the offer to go to oxford himself). i have to say that no other 13 year old i knew (or she knows) watches newsnight and question time, and can tweet about politics so articulately to the point that one of her teachers suggested she post her age so as not to attract the wrong sort of attention from people who would assume her to be much older. i doubt she'd give anyone at oxford who wanted to work in the city the time of day, far less look to do that herself.

i will be perfectly happy for any of my other children to attend a non-russell uni if they're doing a vocational course in something they enjoy, and i wouldn't consider it as any less important than their older sister's accomplishments. and if they want to work in the city, that's up to them, if that's what they want to do…

 

[Glow worm]

horses for courses indeed.

my daughter doesn't want the ppe course at oxford for any reason related to snobbery, but because she harbours political ambitions and oxford not only offers the course she wants but also the chance to network with people with similar ambitions;

She could do worse than looking at Aberystwyth. I don't think snobbery's in the vocabulary there! There's a pretty good International Politics Dept, a brilliant environment and way of life and a general down to earth, grounded feel to the place and it's people. There's something really special about Aber, hard to put your finger on really, but anyone who went will know what I mean.

 

[Ajay]

There are plenty of world class unis outside the Russell Group.
The 1994 group for example, includes "Top 10 unis" Durham, St Andrews, Lancaster (ahem), plus Bath, York, Exeter etc.

 

[col]

My Son is going to Northumria uni in sept, engineering and cad. He cant wait.

 

[Noodley]

Send her to St Andrews, she might meet and marry a prince....