White Lives Matter Burnley

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winjim

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@Mugshot @Inertia I just edited out the twitter link from my post as it was making me feel a bit uncomfortable and the Mirror story says all that needs to be said really. Would you mind doing the same to your quotes of it when you get the chance? Ta
 
Seen this somewhere before, i can't think where though....

Hepple told MailOnline: "I'm not racist. I know people are trying to make out to be one but I'm not. I've got lots of black and Asian friends and this banner was actually inspired by the Black Lives Movement.
"We were not trying to offend the movement or black people.
"I believe that it's also important to acknowledge that white lives matter too. That's all we were trying to say."
 
Cambridge University has tweeted in defence of its academics’ right to express opinions and has condemned personal attacks and abuse, after a petition to fire Dr Priyamvada Gopal, English academic and Churchill fellow, was launched yesterday, triggering a wave of online abuse towards the academic.

The petition, ‘Fire Cambridge Professor for Racism’, was launched on petition site change.org after Gopal tweeted, “I’ll say it again. White Lives Don’t Matter. As white lives” and “Abolish whiteness”, on Tuesday evening.
In the thread to the tweet, Gopal had contextualised the tweet further, adding “Yes, all lives matter. White lives as white do not.”
https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/19539

Without knowing the full context, this seems a bizarre thing to say. Her tweet has been removed from Twitter as it broke the site guidelines.
 

winjim

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https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/19539

Without knowing the full context, this seems a bizarre thing to say. Her tweet has been removed from Twitter as it broke the site guidelines.
It kind of makes sense to me, as I can imagine the point that I think that she was trying to get across, but that's my interpretation. I'm not sure that twitter is the best medium for conveying that nuance and she really should have expected that response. It might be better fleshed out into an article or essay.

Basically I think it comes down to whiteness being the default state. I don't imagine that I think of myself as white in the same way that many black people think of themselves as black. I don't need to.

I'm carrying a pink bag right now as it happens.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
Not in the correspondence I had with them it wasnt. The message was All lives cannot matter until black lives are equal. There was no ambiguity. But it was only one persons interpretation.

My initial post was All lives matter. I stand by that.
That is an slogan i have seen black lives matters use more than once. Same with ''silence is complicit'' or something.. but never something like ''maybe we should clean up or own garden first''

I don't anyone would disagree with that. How about this, do you:

1. Think white people, in general, are treated worse by the police/society and in general, have fewer opportunities to progress
2. Think black people, in general, are treated worse by the police/society and in general, have fewer opportunities to progress
3. Think everyone right now is equal, so let's just move on

I can't figure out a simpler way of asking.
But it is'nt that simple, because if you narrow it down to black lives only you sooner or later unwillingly discriminate a other group, so you have to add at least 999 entries to that list to include all groups and sooner than later you will notice some things will clash with eachother, then religion come in the mix too and culture and history things like that.

Well the bloke responsible for the stunt has lost his job over it, as has his girlfriend, for being, as it turns out, a massive racist. Whodathunkit?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/breaking-burnley-fan-behind-white-22246694
Well the intentions where clear to begin with, i mean you can fell strongly about white lives that matter, but unless this bloke rents an plane to fly over every odd months to make his point.(so always way before this) it's not about white lives is. It still isn't a crime yet, but as he noticed in todays world it is'nt without consequences.(although i don't necessarily think it an good development but that an other discussion) I haven't seen his girlfriends tweets but you have something like smoke and fire.
It kind of makes sense to me, as I can imagine the point that I think that she was trying to get across, but that's my interpretation. I'm not sure that twitter is the best medium for conveying that nuance and she really should have expected that response. It might be better fleshed out into an article or essay.

Basically I think it comes down to whiteness being the default state. I don't imagine that I think of myself as white in the same way that many black people think of themselves as black. I don't need to.

I'm carrying a pink bag right now as it happens.
There is no nuance at all it is racism, plain and simple. If you replace white with black the swat team is already ramming in your doors to arrest you. So why should we be all ok when a poc says it? in a way that is racism too it's called white plaining so instead of getting the same line for everyone we lower the expectation or accept more because the person is poc but what you actually doing is not treating the poc as you would any other person.. so that is racism
 

stowie

Legendary Member
That is an slogan i have seen black lives matters use more than once. Same with ''silence is complicit'' or something.. but never something like ''maybe we should clean up or own garden first''
Are you really saying that institutional racism in government functions shouldn't be addressed or even acknowledged until somehow the very group that is often least empowered to change things, magically change things?

To use a somewhat asinine analogy, whenever I hear this sort of talk it reminds of the argument "cyclists should stop jumping red lights before we help them to stop dying under lorries"*.

*It might be an asinine analogy, but it is amazing how the arguments across all forms of prejudice of perceived out groups has the same form...
 

Starchivore

I don't know much about Cinco de Mayo
Ridiculous and potentially offensive as the banner incident was, I think people should bear in mind that saying something like that is not against the law. I think the way the reaction to this has gone is not good because:

A) It's probably what they wanted- a load of publicity, and to be able to say "look, my free speech is being clamped down on, the authorities don't think that white lives matter"

B) It may be, in the context, a stupid thing to say, and offensive... but it would be really, really stretching to say it was hate speech

All this just plays right into the hand of the political right, alt-right, whatever. Just like with the tone of the "debate" of Brexit. We're in danger of the same mistakes again
 

winjim

✊🏻✊🏾
There is no nuance at all it is racism, plain and simple. If you replace white with black the swat team is already ramming in your doors to arrest you. So why should we be all ok when a poc says it? in a way that is racism too it's called white plaining so instead of getting the same line for everyone we lower the expectation or accept more because the person is poc but what you actually doing is not treating the poc as you would any other person.. so that is racism
Yes it is racism but it is also nuanced. Replacing white with black doesn't work in this case, which to my mind is precisely the thought exeriment I think she was trying to have.

Having 57 different words for snow and only one for racism does put us at a slight disadvantage when discussing things like this though. As I said, it's probably best explained at greater length in an essay, in order to avoid precisely the sort of misunderstanding we are currently having.
 

newfhouse

Elitist lefty
Location
CR8
To use a somewhat asinine analogy, whenever I hear this sort of talk it reminds of the argument "cyclists should stop jumping red lights before we help them to stop dying under lorries"*.

*It might be an asinine analogy, but it is amazing how the arguments across all forms of prejudice of perceived out groups has the same form...
Go on, admit it, you’ve been listening to phone-in radio again, haven’t you?
 

newfhouse

Elitist lefty
Location
CR8
A) It's probably what they wanted- a load of publicity, and to be able to say "look, my free speech is being clamped down on, the authorities don't think that white lives matter"

B) It may be, in the context, a stupid thing to say, and offensive... but it would be really, really stretching to say it was hate speech
The authorities found no grounds for taking action, so the self publicists continue to have the right of free speech. Their employers took action to protect their business reputations, and it is too early to say if that was lawful.

I accept that it is all too easy for fellow racists to portray these idiots as victims, but what is the alternative? Say and do nothing?
 

Rusty Nails

We remember
Location
Here and there
The authorities found no grounds for taking action, so the self publicists continue to have the right of free speech. Their employers took action to protect their business reputations, and it is too early to say if that was lawful.

I accept that it is all too easy for fellow racists to portray these idiots as victims, but what is the alternative? Say and do nothing?
Once it is reported in the media it is too late to say it should be ignored. The self-publicity has been gained and there needs to be discussion of it to counteract that.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
Are you really saying that institutional racism in government functions shouldn't be addressed or even acknowledged until somehow the very group that is often least empowered to change things, magically change things?

To use a somewhat asinine analogy, whenever I hear this sort of talk it reminds of the argument "cyclists should stop jumping red lights before we help them to stop dying under lorries"*.

*It might be an asinine analogy, but it is amazing how the arguments across all forms of prejudice of perceived out groups has the same form...
No i'm not, i was quoting a few that imply every white person is complicit if they don't act. and my response was only relating to that slogan.
Yes it is racism but it is also nuanced. Replacing white with black doesn't work in this case, which to my mind is precisely the thought exeriment I think she was trying to have.

Having 57 different words for snow and only one for racism does put us at a slight disadvantage when discussing things like this though. As I said, it's probably best explained at greater length in an essay, in order to avoid precisely the sort of misunderstanding we are currently having.
I respectfully disagree with you, it is racism and it is'nt nuanced and please don't think a other word for the same problem equals a solution. The phone/energy/etc. company does that always the same ''we have renamed stuff to make it make it better'' what it actually says is ''you pay more and you get less''
And turning it around would say ''Black lives don't matter'' ''abolish blackness'' it could'nt be more racist how matter which way you put it. It just that more people get triggered by the word black in current times does'nt make it any more of less racist of you change it to white, yellow, orange and so on. Especially with the abolish whiteness behind it, if you know the nuance behind that then it an active call to for racism.
A other thing is that i'm very sure this very university would be the first to fire an academic if they said exactly the same thing but with white replaced with black.
 

winjim

✊🏻✊🏾
And turning it around would say ''Black lives don't matter'' ''abolish blackness'' it could'nt be more racist how matter which way you put it.
So... don't turn it around then. This entire thread is predicated on somebody who 'turned it around', who turned out to be, surprise surprise, a massive racist. Not everything flips round as neatly as you seem to suggest, the black/white relationship is asymmetric. Which is completely, totally and utterly 100% the farking issue here.
 

dutchguylivingintheuk

Senior Member
So... don't turn it around then. This entire thread is predicated on somebody who 'turned it around', who turned out to be, surprise surprise, a massive racist. Not everything flips round as neatly as you seem to suggest, the black/white relationship is asymmetric. Which is completely, totally and utterly 100% the farking issue here.
So now you're implying turning it around proves you an ''massive racist''? That is off course BS. But it it also besides the point, my point racism is wrong not matter if you put it down to white/black/orange etc. Even if you would accept that the black/white relation would be asymmetric. I mean it's completely ridiculous to accept racism because you claim the group being discriminated is entitled to that racism for whatever reason it's just not acceptable no matter how you twist it, because if you do who are you to deny other to do the same?
 

dodgy

Legendary Member
Location
Wirral
But it is'nt that simple, because if you narrow it down to black lives only you sooner or later unwillingly discriminate a other group, so you have to add at least 999 entries to that list to include all groups and sooner than later you will notice some things will clash with eachother, then religion come in the mix too and culture and history things like that.
Nah, it's pretty simple. For the benefit of those following, I asked:
Do you think that:
1. Think white people, in general, are treated worse by the police/society and in general, have fewer opportunities to progress​
2. Think black people, in general, are treated worse by the police/society and in general, have fewer opportunities to progress​
3. Think everyone right now is equal, so let's just move on​

FWIW, if I was asked the question I would vote option 2.

Complicate it if you want, says more about you than me.
 
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