2 more women die in London

[Tin Pot]

Er, i fail to see what the extremely serious subject of domestic violence has to do with this.

Yes you do, and you're still asking loaded questions despite my previous response.

If you disagree with any of my posts, could you be specific about where you think I am wrong and why you think I'm wrong?

(Statements would be useful in progressing this conversation.)

 

[jonny jeez]

Something needs doing, as it's not reflective of the rest of the UK. Maybe there are more in-experienced cyclists in London due to your 'critical mass' of cyclists making people feel safer, plus the sheer number of big vehicles, including construction traffic on roads not designed for it.

London is a sprawling city. Most UK cities are a mile or two in radius and then you hit suburbia... that must affect it.

volume and a false sense of safety wouldn't directly explain the higher level of female deaths. Yes it would suggest more incidents for all riders but why the high level of female deaths... something else must be going on

 

[fossyant]

Right, deliberately baiting members isn't appropriate. There has been enough trouble here.

Maybe our extensive joint knowledge of commuting needs to think of a way of getting an investigation going. The death rate is out of control in London, never mind else where, but I think it's linked to critical mass.

I was speaking with my solicitor who cycles into London, and I explained how we, outside of London, don't have this mass. It's unusual to get more than yourself at a junction. Get 4 and it's a party.... our hazards is they don't expect cyclists, even in the city centre. There aren't many round Piccadilly in Manchester compared to London - I drive round there every night now (since breaking my spine).

 

[fossyant]

Behave folks....

 

[jonny jeez]

Right, deliberately baiting members isn't appropriate. There has been enough trouble here.

Maybe our extensive joint knowledge of commuting needs to think of a way of getting an investigation going. The death rate is out of control in London, never mind else where, but I think it's linked to critical mass.

I was speaking with my solicitor who cycles into London, and I explained how we, outside of London, don't have this mass. It's unusual to get more than yourself at a junction. Get 4 and it's a party.... our hazards is they don't expect cyclists, even in the city centre. There aren't many round Piccadilly in Manchester compared to London - I drive round there every night now (since breaking my spine).

yes but as I said before volume doesn't explain the female point. I really think critical mass..general .mass, volume these are all red herrings. it pretty clear that more numbers of riders will result in more issues but why are so many females being killed?

 

[PK99]

I don't know, at a guess no. of men beaten to death by their wife in the last 12 months would be approximating zero. Not so for the inverse, I suspect.

But I'm not sure a statistical comparison would be useful, so much as the approach to the problem. Domestic violence is no longer approached from a "what was she doing wrong" point of view, perhaps the same should be the case when it comes to killing them with cars.

In male domestic violence there is a clear male vs female deliberate act.

Is your second paragraph trying to say you think there is the same happening re the female cyclists?

 

[fossyant]

yes but as I said before volume doesn't explain the female point. I really think critical mass..general .mass, volume these are all red herrings. it pretty clear that more numbers of riders will result in more issues but why are so many females being killed?

Well you are from that part of the world.. I'm going with the free for all cycling attitude !

Unless there is real research then there are some real issues in London. The big vehicles are a major feature, as is experience... you won't get in-experienced folk going on a bike in Manchester - no cycle hire rubbish, and drivers that will run you over !

 

[jonny jeez]

And then only if the underlying problem really is a lack of assertion. Thus far, it appears to be a self supporting assumption.

I really don't think that is true. I cant think of any riding situations in London that would benefit from being less assertive. So I don't think its self supporting, I think its common sense that to communicate well with, ride with and be treated respectfully with, other road users, you need to be assertive... confident if you prefer. But I do take your point that assertiveness in itself may not be the cause of the high number of female deaths. Although I do believe its linked.

I'll propose a few thoughts (that others have suggested) and I apologise to all if these seem sexist or blunt but I am genuinely interested in trying to reach some sort of consensus, revealing or not.

1- Is my theory about rule breaking, compliance and general male ego in some way true?
2- Are drivers considering female riders less important?
3- Are men just genitically better equipped for cycling in a certain postcode...I know, I know it sound ridiculous but I'm asking?
4- Are drivers of trucks deliberately targeting female riders
5- Is something else going on

 

[jonny jeez]

That women are less assertive was the assumption.

By who?

 

[fossyant]

Right discuss the subject people. No tolerance now

WHY is this happening ??? IDEAS ? ITS A CRIME... It's not happening in the same proportions in Manchester (that seems to be just me) !!!

 

[fossyant]

Riders in the City - any demographics ?

Borris bikes, or just bikes ?

 

[fossyant]

Cycling clad riders, or civvy clad riders ?

 

[Profpointy]

Have you read this thread? It is a theme that has run through it, that women are lacking assertiveness which makes drivers kill them, that women lack the necessary spatial awareness to cope with traffic.

So do you think the assertiveness suggestion is false then ?

 

[fossyant]

We are trying to discuss the issue. Part of that is getting to grips with whether or not there really is an issue or just an apparent issue. If there is an issue, what that issue might be.

You have an issue in London with people getting killed generally, especially women.

 

[fossyant]

On bikes I add.