20MPH in Bolton (a step closer)

[MrHappyCyclist]

I was pleased to hear that on Wednesday evening, Bolton council carried the following motion unanimously:

This Council proposes to introduce a mandatory 20 mph speed limit on most residential roads in the Borough. This proposal confirms the Council's policy to improve road safety, reduce the severity of casualties, and improve the local environment.
The speed limit of 20 mph be introduced in phases over a period of two years, and that the speed limit and enforcement be closely discussed with Greater Manchester Police.

 

[Ern1e]

They have been rolling them out around Rossendale over the last few months getting very mixed reactions to them, me personaly I think they are a fantastic idea bring them on.

 

[I like Skol]

I am dead against this!!!!!!!! Why don't they try spending some cash on a police force to enforce the laws that already exist. Motorist law enforcement is a joke, and I say this as an ex profesional driver and a bit of a petrol head. It is the wild west out on the roads and the chances of getting caught for driving like a d!ck are slim to non-existant. What difference is putting an unenforced 20mph limit in place going to make?

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Well it seems to have made a difference in other places. See the 20's plenty web site for references. Enforcement is not the only issue. It is a cultural thing. In any case, lots of burglaries go unsolved; is that an argument for making burglary legal?

 

[Linford]

Well it seems to have made a difference in other places. See the 20's plenty web site for references. Enforcement is not the only issue. It is a cultural thing. In any case, lots of burglaries go unsolved; is that an argument for making burglary legal?

A difference to what ?

I'd much rather see the standards on the roads improved so that those using them use an appropriate speed for the condition....and that may not even be 20mph.

You don't really sound that happy TBH

 

[theclaud]

Would someone please tell Linf that the Safespeed forums are thataway?>>>>>

Jolly good. Well done Bolton.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I'd much rather see the standards on the roads improved so that those using them use an appropriate speed for the condition

And you think the two are mutually exclusive?

....and that may not even be 20mph.

20mph is the maximum; it isn't compulsory to drive at the speed limit.

You don't really sound that happy TBH

How so? Because I don't agree with you? That's a little arrogant of you. I am very happy that we seem to be making progress recently on a number of important fronts for cycle use. Sure, there are always people who will be negative to the end, in the face of all the evidence, but we just have to ignore them.

 

[Linford]

And you think the two are mutually exclusive?


20mph is the maximum; it isn't compulsory to drive at the speed limit.


.

And nor is 30, 40 or 50.......what are you looking to do, introduce another limit to be ignored ?

 

[Globalti]

We are waiting for the 20 mph limit to reach our street, which is blighted by short-cutters. Anything that swings the balance in drivers' minds towards staying on the main road is good for us. It also gives us residents a legitimate reason to drive at 20 mph and block and hinder all the speeding short-cutters. Bring it on!

There is no chance of any extra money being spent on Police; governments have realised that thanks to the compliant behaviour of most citizens, crime remains at a politically tolerable level with no almost Police on proactive patrol at all, technology being used to catch idiots, high visibility for the few Police actually out in public, PR programmes on TV showing the Police chasing and catching criminals and Police who respond to urgent requests for help. There's never been a better time to speed, drink-drive or use a mobile..... but woe betide you if you're stupid enough to get caught.

 

[Linford]

We are waiting for the 20 mph limit to reach our street, which is blighted by short-cutters. Anything that swings the balance in drivers' minds towards staying on the main road is good for us. It also gives us residents a legitimate reason to drive at 20 mph and block and hinder all the speeding short-cutters. Bring it on!

I'm actually in the same position myself with short cutters....to the point where we petitioned and had a no entry and a cycle plug put in nearly 20 years ago, and then with them revising it a couple of years ago again which made no difference at all, as when they see their normal route blocked off (which prompts them to use my road), they swerve in, and gun it down the road to they and make up their lost 1/2 minute.
I've actually got no problem with people doing 30mph down my road provided they have a good line of site to anyone on the pavement and slow down as they pass them, but they don't, they ignore the no entry (3 point and £60 fine) and then (IMO) touch 60mph whilst traversing it (another 3 points, and another £60 fine....or a ban) We have have had scaffolding lorries swinging into the road at such a speed and then dropping their poles on parked cars as well as other cars being rolled on the corner, hitting other cars as they have lost control, as well as coming through the (blind) no entry at speed and hitting cars (legally) coming down the road the other way head on (one was my neighbour and her O/H who had to be cut out of the car)

Do I think that a 20mph limit would make a difference ?.... No I don't as they don't acknowledge the laws in place for the road as it is. The next step will be turning it into a cul-de-sac if we can persuade the council to buy it as everything else has failed, and I fear that it is only a matter of time before one of these idiots takes someones life or gives them a life changing injury

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

This debate hss been argued through ad-nauseum. Have a look here, for the answers to these negative comments.
http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/Busting_the_myths.htm

 

[Linford]

This debate hss been argued through ad-nauseum. Have a look here, for the answers to these negative comments.
http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/Busting_the_myths.htm

This change was the trigger for the move towards 20mph limits being set as the default for residential roads when Portsmouth became the first city in 2008 to fully implement a city-wide scheme. For a cost of just £475,000 it changed the speed limit on 1,200 roads to 20mph. As a result of this in 2009 after the first year it was able to report a 7mph reduction in average speed on the roads where previously the average was between 24 and 29mph. A result which the Dept for Transport found "statistically significant". This caused the department to rewrite its guidelines for urban speed limit in December 2009 when it encouraged all residential streets to be set at 20mph.

Why haven't they posted the data for subsequent years, and you do appreciate that in doing this, they have turned the average motorist from drivers who are driving within the limits by a sensible margin into a group of law breakers who are all now ignoring the limits with impunity.

My own and my neighbours experiences are that if people knowingly break one law, they have little compunction to break a few others (in for a penny, in for a pound).......

 

[Linford]

[QUOTE 2419403, member: 45"]20mph limits are statistically safer. It's not for anyone on this thread to prove that to you -the evidence is out there.

I look forward to a summary of your findings....[/quote]

I beg to differ on this, and as my own observations have found in relation to the implementation of a no entry, that when a new restriction goes in, people use caution, and respect it, but then after a while, they start to take chances, and the level of offending returns to previous levels after 3 or 4 years...the only thing which stops them is the risk of getting caught....and the only way that happens is if they are either involved in an accident or the police very very occasionally stake the junction out after the latest complaint from someone using the road legally or who has had a near miss......

Are you more interested in seeing adherence to the law as as written, or that they are safer roads?....as I said, I'd be happy for people to use my road at 30mph if they learned to respect that it is a residential road, and slowed to sensible speeds to acknowledge they are a risk when coming into contact with others than just blindly following the law....I'm not holding my breath though...

One years stats is just rubbish really as it doesn't take into account human nature to chance their arm....familiarity breeds contempt!

 

[Globalti]

The next step will be turning it into a cul-de-sac if we can persuade the council to buy it as everything else has failed, and I fear that it is only a matter of time before one of these idiots takes someones life or gives them a life changing injury

Linf, after a 30 year campaign residents in our street came close to achieving this, the Police supported it and Lancashire CC were all for it; it was just a matter of blocking off the road to creat two culs de sac. Then at the last minute a county councillor who has always claimed to be on our side, blocked the proposal. Nobody knows why and I only know this because someone senior in the Police told me in confidence. We think somebody who plays golf with him or a fellow mason in the street was upset at the prospect of having to drive an extra half mile to the golf club.

 

[Linford]

[QUOTE 2419483, member: 45"]You can base your disagreement on your own short-sighted experience, but it would be disappointing if you took that over the statistical evidence that shows that 20mph limits work and are safer.

Of course, I'm most interested in safer roads. And the evidence suggests that 20mph limits result in safer roads. I'm afraid that you little anecdote doesn't hold up.

I'll take you back to my previous post. You're even mixing up your evidence. You're talking about one report suggesting a reduction in speed. I'm talking about all of the evidence to show that 20mph roads are safer.

This is why I suggested that you research it properly, because all you've done here is be swayed by the molehill of your street and got muddled about one piece of evidence.

I look forward to seeing a summary of your investigation...[/quote]

Anecdotal evidence is very important. Anecdotal evidence is used all the time in court to determine how things affect people in the real world in the form of victim impact statements.

1 years data is realistically just rubbish, and as for supporting my assertion that familiarity breeds contempt, the Portsmouth experiment actually proves this to be the case.

Case study: Portsmouth
The ABD use the latest DfT road casualty data to fuel their argument against Portsmouth's limits. They note that, between 2010 and 2011, casualties resulting in death or serious injury rose from 91 to 143 - an increase of 57 per cent. The national average rise was just two per cent.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/speed_humps_20_mph_limit_zones_plenty_Portsmouth_KSI-27588
You can draw any conclusion you like from the whole reports own conclusion, but such a large jump in the number is fairly damning of a city wide law. I wait to see what the next few years bring, and am happy they are chosing to experiment like this in a place I have no need or desire to visit (a bit like Oxford )