Disgusting Result

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oldstrath

Über Member
Location
Strathspey
Mis-placed cynicism.

I agree someone who appears for burglary may well have done several houses previously without being caught.

But are you seriously suggesting this women has previously wiped out half a dozen cyclists and not been caught for it?

Her excuse for kiling this man was 'The light was green'. Not even the usual SMIDSY rubbish, but basically 'I was entitled to drive into him, he should not have been there', so although I agree she probably hasn't killed anyone else, with an attitude like that I think it's more down to luck than good driving.

As for her good character, if I felt entitled to heave a d-lock through the windscreen of a car because the driver was breaking the rules I doubt you'd think me a fine person. How is driving into someone because they are breaking the rules different?
 

oldstrath

Über Member
Location
Strathspey
This is a societal problem rather than pertinent to this case.

AFAIK the thinking is that permanent bans don't work for bad serial offenders. They just continue to drive without licence hence insurance and probably no MoT. They are just or even more lethal. Suspension for a shorter period might just get them off the road for that period as they know by doing that they will have a right to drive again. Which then gives a problem with 'single event' offenders. You can't suspend them longer than serial offenders.

Its a difficult problem. We don't want these people driving but if taking away a licence permanently doesn't stop them - what to do? No easy answers.

Would probably involve imposing major costs and inconvenience, but there are technological ways to ensure only drivers with a valid licence drive. Agreed there'd be the usual 'civil liberties' issues, and some people might be forced to stop driving. Hard to greet over, to be honest.
 

AndyPeace

Guest
Location
Worcestershire
It's a poor result for sure. Locally, a firmer sentance was recently given to a driver who killed a pedestrian. Different circumstances but the driver got a 9 month prison sentance along with a three year driving ban. She was a volunteer for The Red Cross (the driver). One of the younger employee's of the local rag wrote a heartsob story about how it was wrong this lady was in prison for something that 'could happen to anyone' and how if she wasn't she'd still be do- gooding in her voluntry role. I think it was step forward (all be a small) in sending a message to drivers.
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
As for her good character

It is her previous good character that is taken into account at sentence.

She draws upon all those blameless law abiding years as 'credit' to set against the sentence.

The amount of credit is decided by the judge, and there are no guidelines for how much a judge should take previous good character into account.

Clearly, the offence comes into it.

Someone such as the double child killer Ian Huntley gets a whopping stretch whatever his previous character.

Someone who unintentionally knocks a person over on a crossing is in a different position.
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
Someone such as the double child killer Ian Huntley gets a whopping stretch whatever his previous character.

If you typed that with a straight face, then it's quite illuminating. Of course, courts don't really mean "character" - they mean respectability.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
It is her previous good character that is taken into account at sentence.

She draws upon all those blameless law abiding years as 'credit' to set against the sentence.

The amount of credit is decided by the judge, and there are no guidelines for how much a judge should take previous good character into account.

Clearly, the offence comes into it.

Someone such as the double child killer Ian Huntley gets a whopping stretch whatever his previous character.

Someone who unintentionally knocks a person over on a crossing is in a different position.

Errr …….. good character in the legal sense means no criminal record i.e. a person has never been before a court and had penalties, sanction or a punishment imposed on them. It has NOTHING to do with whether a person does good or bad things in their life such as charity worker, nurse as opposed to some one in a less morally acceptable job or profession. A judge may be swayed but they should not be. Some one without a criminal record is considered to be a person of 'good character' and is given credit for this. However, how much credit is dependent on the severity of the offence they are about to be convicted of, their conduct in court and whether having pleaded NG as is their right when they clearly were guilty and should have pleaded so, to have put victims and witnesses to give evidence may counteract any benefit a good character might have had on reducing sentence. But it is not an exact science despite sentencing guidelines that some judges just seem to make it up as they go.

This woman should have got a minimum of 3 years in prison and a 10 year driving ban to commence on her release in addition to the £2k fine she was given. The car she was also driving if not written off should be crushed.
 
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Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Errr …….. good character in the legal sense means no criminal record i.e. a person has never been before a court and had penalties, sanction or a punishment imposed on them. It has NOTHING to do with whether a person does good or bad things in their life such as charity worker, nurse as opposed to some one in a less morally acceptable job or profession. A judge may be swayed but they should not be. Some one without a criminal record is considered to be a person of 'good character' and is given credit for this. However, how much credit is dependent on the severity of the offence they are about to be convicted of, their conduct in court and whether having pleaded NG as is their right when they clearly were guilty and should have pleaded so, to have put victims and witnesses to give evidence may counteract any benefit a good character might have had on reducing sentence. But it is not an exact science despite sentencing guidelines that some judges just seem to make it up as they go.

This woman should have got a minimum of 3 years in prison and a 10 year driving ban to commence on her release in addition to the £2k fine she was given. The car she was also driving if not written off should be crushed.

All of a person's character can be put before the judge, including charity work, references from local worthies etc.

The judge is entitled to take this into account to an extent he decides.

This applies even if a person pleads not guilty, in fact, if they are convicted after a trial their only mitigation can be previous good character.

What they lose by pleading not guilty is the automatic discount for admitting the offence, usually stated as one third.

You seem to be suggesting the woman should have pleaded guilty.

Her defence was a simple one - the light was on green - she may genuinely have believed it, even if that belief was mistaken.

After all, she might be thinking; "I've been driving for years and I'm not in the habit of driving through red lights."

In those circumstances, I think it is understandable for a person to plead not guilty.

As regards sentence, the jury convicted her of death by careless so that is what she falls to be dealt with for.

"Careless' in these terms means 'a momentary lack of attention', which could be about right.

The 'minimum of three years' you suggest is a lot for a second - or less - of daydreaming.

Lock her up forever if you want, but don't complain if it's ever your turn.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
All of a person's character can be put before the judge, including charity work, references from local worthies etc.

The judge is entitled to take this into account to an extent he decides.

This applies even if a person pleads not guilty, in fact, if they are convicted after a trial their only mitigation can be previous good character.

What they lose by pleading not guilty is the automatic discount for admitting the offence, usually stated as one third.

You seem to be suggesting the woman should have pleaded guilty.

Her defence was a simple one - the light was on green - she may genuinely have believed it, even if that belief was mistaken.

After all, she might be thinking; "I've been driving for years and I'm not in the habit of driving through red lights."

In those circumstances, I think it is understandable for a person to plead not guilty.

As regards sentence, the jury convicted her of death by careless so that is what she falls to be dealt with for.

"Careless' in these terms means 'a momentary lack of attention', which could be about right.

The 'minimum of three years' you suggest is a lot for a second - or less - of daydreaming.

Lock her up forever if you want, but don't complain if it's ever your turn.

You are still failing to understand the legal meaning of 'Good Character' so email Spen666. I am sure he will spell it out for you as I have tried to do.

For the rest of your rant, l leave it to you.
 
OP
OP
cd365

cd365

Guru
Location
Coventry, uk
This woman should have got a minimum of 3 years in prison and a 10 year driving ban to commence on her release in addition to the £2k fine she was given. The car she was also driving if not written off should be crushed.
+1
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
I wouldn't mind the lack of a custodial sentence if the driving ban was more proportionate to the offence.

I don't see why someone who killed someone when driving, and it was their fault, should ever drive again.
Why aren't there more lifetime driving bans? In fact had anyone ever received a lifetime driving ban?

If you recklessly fired off your legally held shotgun, do you think you would ever get a firearm licence again, even if it was an accident?
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
You are still failing to understand the legal meaning of 'Good Character' so email Spen666. I am sure he will spell it out for you as I have tried to do.

For the rest of your rant, l leave it to you.

We will just agree to disagree, although if you think my post was a rant, it doesn't augur well for your grasp of the meaning of words, legal or otherwise.
 

Accy cyclist

Legendary Member
"Ben Williams, defending, said: “It’s a fact of the rules of the road that a cyclist should not be using a pedestrian crossing.”

Is this prick for real?!:angry: So if i walk my bike across a pedestrian crossing when the lights are on red i can be legally hit without question?! A twenty five quid a week fine and a few weeks picking litter,not bad for killing someone!:angry:
 

mr_cellophane

Legendary Member
Location
Essex
Yes, a suspended sentence can be activated in whole or part if another offence is committed within the period of suspension.

This woman - as with a lot of killer drivers - appears to be of previous good character, so the chances of her offending again are remote.
Even more remote in this case as the suspension is for 2 years and the driving ban for 3.
 
Cyclist knocks down and injures someone on pedestrian crossing and gets 12 months in jail deservedly mind, driver knocks down and kills cyclist on pedestrian crossing and has to say sorry with a ban. Says it all really.
 

S.Giles

Guest
I recently saw an incident at a pedestrian crossing that may shed some light on this.

A person driving a disabled vehicle shot across a pedestrian crossing much faster than a pedestrian would be expected to do. A car nearly collided with the disabled vehicle, presumably because the driver was not expecting something like that to occur so quickly, and was taken by surprise. Is it possible that a person riding a bicycle (fairly quickly, say) across a pedestrian crossing would have contributory negligence because of the speed at which they were moving? I don't know the particular details of this case (or if what I have said is relevant to it), but the principle seems reasonable to me.

Steve
 
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