Ribble Endurance ALe Sport for commuting - Part 2 - Wow, what a disappointment!

[Dadam]

Sorry to hear about your Ribble. I've not thrown a leg over one but my Orbea Gain is my favourite bike.

Ebikes vary massively. How the transition to above the cutoff feels depends on the bike, weight and motor power and the controller programming. Hub drive vs mid drive doesn’t come into it. On the Bosch engined hardtail it’s very noticeable due to the high torque and the weight of the bike. On the DIY rear hub conversion hybrid it‘s very noticeable because it’s a simple cadence sensor. In fact as long as the chain wheel is going round the motor gets power, so “ghost pedalling“ is very easy, and quite fun.

On the Gain however it’s very subtle especially in the low and mid assist levels. I think it’s because it’s relatively low torque, but also the controller tails off the assist subtly. Orbea (Mahle) claim 44nm but as a "crank motor equivalent". I've no idea what that means but I read somewhere it's really only 17nm which feels more accurate. The XF08 motor on my converted bike claims 45nm and has much more shove.

However on steep stuff turning the assist off is very noticeable. It definitely works. If your Ribble doesn't feel like it's making a difference there's something wrong.

I also wonder if your discs are dragging. This might explain both the brakes not feeling keen and the motor wheel stopping in 1 revolution: mine spins to a stop in 4-5 revs from a "finger on spoke shove". So more friction than a normal bike hub but not much. I find the Tiagra hydraulic brakes great at stopping, wet or dry, totally confidence inducing and practically maintenance free. I've checked pad wear obviously but not had to do anything else at all in 14 months. I have changed pads on the hybrid (Tektro hydro discs) once in 4 years.

 

[albion]

Read the thread.

 

[Dadam]

Read the thread.

If that's in reply to me, I have. I'd forgotten I'd already responded in part, but that aside, what's your point?
It's a thread with many replies and several themes.

 

[bonzobanana]

I think some riders are just too good for a legal ebike. They simply ride too fast to get the benefit of the motor and then its all negative with the extra weight and complexity of the ebike components. Yes they will find hills easier but if its one of these low weight low torque motors designed for road bikes which have low capacity batteries they can't provide too much power and it won't last very long either and so only provides light hill climbing assistance. Ebikes make more sense if you are just getting back into cycling and spend more time at low speeds. That said if you really want massive hill climbing assistance then get a mid-drive e-mountain bike those bikes can seriously climb but then they have 90Nm of torque and low gearing to get you up those hills as long as they aren't too long and the motor overheats. A road bike with high gearing and a motor that probably struggles to produce 15Nm of torque for a prelonged period is not going to compare to that.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

I think that I have worked out the reason for my disappointment.

I fully charged the battery at work and after the ride home the prediction is around 150 miles per charge on a Mahle X35 with the 250Wh battery and no range extender.

Before I got the bike I was expecting to have to charge the battery every day as the range wouldn't be enough for 2 days, now it is looking like it could almost make 4 days.

In other words the motor is off most of the time.

When you consider that this is a commute with a number of stops and starts where the motor will be active, the bike is the best part of 8lbs-10lbs heavier than what I am used to and it does do some work on the hills all is becoming clearer.

For a bit of balance my Creo midmount drive ebike has no issues with motor drag or similar at over the legal cut off......

Looking at the numbers on the screen shot you seem to be riding at a similar pace to me.

Most of the stuff that I have been reading talks about 60-80 miles on a charge, half of what it looks like I will be getting, so the assistance level for those poster would be double.

I bought my first ebike just before Christmas but Mrs Slick has had one for a few years now. Neither of us have an app, and just use them for a bit of fun. Ian's experience isn't typical in my limited experience.

I agree that it isn't typical, I think if it were I would never has bought the bike. Don't forget that I bought it with the specific objective of making the commute easier and have down/sidegraded the bike part of the bike for the ebike bit and am not seeing the hoped for benefits.

Sorry to hear about your Ribble. I've not thrown a leg over one but my Orbea Gain is my favourite bike.
.......
However on steep stuff turning the assist off is very noticeable. It definitely works. If your Ribble doesn't feel like it's making a difference there's something wrong.

I also wonder if your discs are dragging. This might explain both the brakes not feeling keen and the motor wheel stopping in 1 revolution: mine spins to a stop in 4-5 revs from a "finger on spoke shove".

On my Raleigh the bottom gear is 38x28 (8 speed) and on the Ribble it is 34x32 (10 speed) and yes on the very steep stuff I can feel the difference, but this probably covers 500 yards in 18 miles. :-( Although I am not high speed spinner I am happy at 90 and a bit RPM and I suspect that the massively lower gears simply spin me out of the power band on the rest of the hills.

Oddly there is a stop, followed by a false flat on a terrible road surface for a couple of hundred yards and I really noticed the motor there as it has always been harder than it looks like it should be.

I will look again at the rear wheel spin later today as brake performance is definitely improving/wearing in.

.... but if its one of these low weight low torque motors designed for road bikes which have low capacity batteries they can't provide too much power .....

Yes it is, I never seen a thorough independent measurement of the X35 system and the torque figures for it do seem to vary quite a lot.

Anyway it is -3 here and I am off to work so may crash it and it won't matter anymore.

Bye

Ian

 

[biggs682]

Good morning

Anyway it is -3 here and I am off to work so may crash it and it won't matter anymore.

Bye

Ian

Please be careful out there

So reading your recent post it sounds like you are not needing the assistance of the motor as much as you had expected.

 

[Mike_P]

Re the brakes / rear wheel spin it could just be a piston not fully depressed. The first added expenditure on my ebike was a piston press tool as the rear brakes were sticking when I got it.

 

[albion]

Range goes off voltage so the info can sonetimes be way out. Do what the bike is good at, relax at 15mph ensuring sone assist all the time.
Your leeway will also also allow you to charge 30% min 70% max, never fully charging and never letting it get too low.

 

[Slick]

Range goes off voltage so the info can sonetimes be way out. Do what the bike is good at, relax at 15mph ensuring sone assist all the time.
Your leeway will also also allow you to charge 30% min 70% max, never fully charging and never letting it get too low.

Why would you never fully charge?

Also, my understanding has always been that getting too low wasn't really an issue for modern batteries as long as they weren't stored in that condition. Thinking about it, I always thought it would be considered good practice to empty and fully restore the battery from time to time.

 

[albion]

Wear of cells is most in the final percents of charging. If you charge to 80% you double lifespan. Also at low charge, high power demand damages cells.

The 'time to time' thing is also true. Cells can go out of balance through each cell having a differing discharge trait. Charging from full discharge to full charge and then leaving the cells to balance is recommended occasionally. However, if you seldom need a full battery I would do this, at most, twice a year.

 

[Jenkins]

Good morning,
<large bits cut out leaving the points I want to highlight - Jenkins>
I fully charged the battery at work and after the ride home the prediction is around 150 miles per charge on a Mahle X35 with the 250Wh battery and no range extender.
Before I got the bike I was expecting to have to charge the battery every day as the range wouldn't be enough for 2 days, now it is looking like it could almost make 4 days.
When you consider that this is a commute with a number of stops and starts where the motor will be active, the bike is the best part of 8lbs-10lbs heavier than what I am used to and it does do some work on the hills all is becoming clearer.
Most of the stuff that I have been reading talks about 60-80 miles on a charge, half of what it looks like I will be getting, so the assistance level for those poster would be double.
Bye
Ian

The estimated range is just an electronic guess based on your recent motor use and assistance levels. If you do ride a fair bit over the 15.5mph motor cut-off and/or at the low assistance level it will show a decent range. I've has 350 miles shown when fully charged on my Garmin (which connects to the bike and is the reason I deleted that Smartbike app) and done 250 at best before charging with 23% battery left and 75 estimated miles available. Raise the assistance level and/or keep your speed below 15.5mph with the motor active all the time and that range will plummet.

I'd guess the talk of 60-80 mile range is based on using the mid assistance level almost all the time and riding below the cut-off speed.

One thing to note is that both the estimated range and the battery level seems to drop off quite quickly once the battery level drops below 50% for some reason despite not changing my riding style or assistance use, so don't rely on it if on a longer ride with a part charged battery.

 

[albion]

On the subject of 'low charge', Chicago supposedly became one massive 'dead car zone'. The might have been all Teslas, the again they might not. And how many were actually dead?
https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook

 

[Dadam]

I think some riders are just too good for a legal ebike. They simply ride too fast to get the benefit of the motor and then its all negative with the extra weight and complexity of the ebike components. Yes they will find hills easier but if its one of these low weight low torque motors designed for road bikes which have low capacity batteries they can't provide too much power and it won't last very long either and so only provides light hill climbing assistance. Ebikes make more sense if you are just getting back into cycling and spend more time at low speeds. That said if you really want massive hill climbing assistance then get a mid-drive e-mountain bike those bikes can seriously climb but then they have 90Nm of torque and low gearing to get you up those hills as long as they aren't too long and the motor overheats. A road bike with high gearing and a motor that probably struggles to produce 15Nm of torque for a prelonged period is not going to compare to that.

Agree with most of this but I'd say there's a sliding scale. Heavier ebikes with stronger motors are great for less fit riders, those just getting (back) into cycling, carrying heavy stuff and of course off road. The 85nm Bosch motor on my emtb makes going uphill more fun than downhill! Very fit riders don't get a lot of benefit outside those parameters.

In the middle though, I find the Gain just right for me, it's just enough assist to take the sting out of the steeper hills but it's not too heavy that it's hard to pedal above the cutoff. I've no experience of light road bikes so I guess I if I had I might have a different perspective, but I'm no lightweight myself at 92kg so it's proportionally less difference. If I was a fitter, more experience road cyclist I would probably find the assist less benefit and the weight more of a penalty. In max assist I can maintain about 11-12mph on the last section of my commute home (about 1.2m averaging about 5% and topping 9% at one bit), adding a reasonable amount of effort. On a manual bike it's more like averaging 7 and dropping below 5 on the steep bit. I've done steeper climbs 10-20% adding a lot of effort and starting to struggle towards the end, where without the motor I'd have been walking halfway up.

One thing to note is a geared hub motor like the Mahle is a bit like a single speed bike. It's got an optimum speed where the motor winding and internal gears provide the best torque to the wheel. On the X35+ I've read this is about 12mph. So on the really steep stuff or for very heavy riders a mid motor is the way to go.

 

[bonzobanana]

Agree with most of this but I'd say there's a sliding scale. Heavier ebikes with stronger motors are great for less fit riders, those just getting (back) into cycling, carrying heavy stuff and of course off road. The 85nm Bosch motor on my emtb makes going uphill more fun than downhill! Very fit riders don't get a lot of benefit outside those parameters.

In the middle though, I find the Gain just right for me, it's just enough assist to take the sting out of the steeper hills but it's not too heavy that it's hard to pedal above the cutoff. I've no experience of light road bikes so I guess I if I had I might have a different perspective, but I'm no lightweight myself at 92kg so it's proportionally less difference. If I was a fitter, more experience road cyclist I would probably find the assist less benefit and the weight more of a penalty. In max assist I can maintain about 11-12mph on the last section of my commute home (about 1.2m averaging about 5% and topping 9% at one bit), adding a reasonable amount of effort. On a manual bike it's more like averaging 7 and dropping below 5 on the steep bit. I've done steeper climbs 10-20% adding a lot of effort and starting to struggle towards the end, where without the motor I'd have been walking halfway up.

One thing to note is a geared hub motor like the Mahle is a bit like a single speed bike. It's got an optimum speed where the motor winding and internal gears provide the best torque to the wheel. On the X35+ I've read this is about 12mph. So on the really steep stuff or for very heavy riders a mid motor is the way to go.

I don't know much about the Mahle setup and its controller but hub motors can vary their torque quite a lot, however the windings are configured on the sliding scale from torque to speed. The controller controls both current and voltage, voltage is the speed of the hub motor and current is the torque. The controller may drop voltage in order to produce a high level of current for more torque. Ultimately though a 250Wh battery which is 250/36 is 7Ah so probably 10 cells in series and 2 in parallel using 3500mAh cells. It's not going to be safe to discharge that battery pack at high current and if you did it would massively effect the lifespan of the battery. Also remember peak torque figures are not the figures the motor/battery combination can maintain for long. Maybe half that is the realistic assistance level for a reasonable duration. The battery pack really dictates the torque of the motor more than the controller most of the time and because prebuilt ebikes tend to have smaller battery packs than ebike kits they typically have less torque. However would this ebike be great with a battery pack that weighed an extra 1kg or even 2kg to provide high levels of current for a longer period? Also would the motor be capable of taking that. Small hub motors don't have a lot of surface area to dissipate heat and most are internally geared with plastic/nylon cogs which will wear down much quicker with higher current levels. It's designed to give light assistance for a reasonable period of time but this is likely disappointing to many who would have expected more power. On the positive side it could be more power than some of the new Swytch kits, they have very low capacity battery packs with very low range and likely the same or less torque.