Spoke count for a commuter wheel build

[Cyclenon]

Hi,

I'm looking at buying a set of hand built wheels based on either the Archetype or the SL23.
The bike is used for commuting in London where the roads are pretty bad although I'm careful to avoid potholes and slow down when the surface is bad.

Rider weight is 80kg (max) and the bike is carbon framed.
I do not have a panier.

Both wheelbuilders have suggested 24/28 rims and a mix of Sapim Laser and Race.

I used Aksiums for a long time (20/20 I believe) with no issues whatsoever and I've seen many on R500/R501s (http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shimano-r500-on-a-commuter.99480/).

Would appreciate views from others give the rims I'm looking at are considered "stiff"?
Could get away with 20/24?

Thanks

 

[boydj]

Two points :
1. Why would you want to take advice from somebody you don't know on here over two experienced wheelbuilders?
2. Would you even notice the weight saving of 4 spokes per wheel if you go with your suggestion?

Personally, I think the recommendations from the wheelbuilders will give you the solid, reliable wheels you need for commuting. The fact that some factory-built wheels have low spoke counts does not make them better than hand-builts with slightly higher spoke counts.

 

[Cyclenon]

Two points :
1. Why would you want to take advice from somebody you don't know on here over two experienced wheelbuilders?
2. Would you even notice the weight saving of 4 spokes per wheel if you go with your suggestion?

Personally, I think the recommendations from the wheelbuilders will give you the solid, reliable wheels you need for commuting. The fact that some factory-built wheels have low spoke counts does not make them better than hand-builts with slightly higher spoke counts.

Thanks - point taken.

 

[I like Skol]

Commuter wheels, bombproof, handbuilt, future proof. Personally, I would not hesitate to suggest a 32Fr/36Rr combination. This may sound overkill but there is something very reassuring about the confidence inspired by bombproof wheels that just perform, regardless of the demands you place upon them, especially when commuting where the trip is more important than a weekend jolly.

These are my commuter wheels that also do so much more besides....

 

[John the Monkey]

I'd be thinking 32 or 36 myself, tbh - not for strength per se, so much as for limpability should a spoke break. I reckon spoke counts in the 20s mean an unrideable wheel should a spoke break.

If the wheel is well built to start with, and looked after, that may be something you don't feel is enough of a possibility to merit consideration. Talk to your builder about it, and see what they reckon.

 

[jowwy]

my wheelbuilder suggested a 32/32 build as its for disc brakes and a 100kg+ rider - i ordered them straight away knowing they would be stiffer and better built than off the peg wheels

i didn't consider wheel weight as its not a huge factor, would be better for me to lose body weight

 

[Smurfy]

Thirty six in each wheel, it's a commuter not a TT machine!

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Hi,

I'm looking at buying a set of hand built wheels based on either the Archetype or the SL23.
The bike is used for commuting in London where the roads are pretty bad although I'm careful to avoid potholes and slow down when the surface is bad.

Rider weight is 80kg (max) and the bike is carbon framed.
I do not have a panier.

Both wheelbuilders have suggested 24/28 rims and a mix of Sapim Laser and Race.

I used Aksiums for a long time (20/20 I believe) with no issues whatsoever and I've seen many on R500/R501s (http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shimano-r500-on-a-commuter.99480/).

Would appreciate views from others give the rims I'm looking at are considered "stiff"?
Could get away with 20/24?

Thanks

I'm not sure I agree with what you have been advised. Did they know the wheels are for commuting in London's roads?
I recently built 2 sets for fellow CC members that weight 100+ kg and commute on bad roads. I recommended Archetype and 32 spokes but in the end he went for 36 for more strength. The other member said I want the same.

I'd say 32r and 28f for you.

 

[John the Monkey]

Higher spoke count isn't, IIRC, a strength thing - the strength is coming, at least in part, from the rim, which will be overbuilt to a degree for lower spoke counts. What a high spoke count does give you is less of an impact on wheel trueness should a spoke break.. You can probably limp home on a 36 or 32 spoke wheel with a broken spoke, I doubt you could on a wheel with lower counts.

 

[sreten]

Hi,

Commuter and carbon frame is an oxymoron.
Wheels that suit the frame wont suit commuting.

Yes you need stiiff rims to get away with low spoke counts.
Which only helps going very fast, commuting isn't very fast.

rgds, sreten.

 

[John the Monkey]

Commuter and carbon frame is an oxymoron.
Wheels that suit the frame wont suit commuting.

Yes you need stiiff rims to get away with low spoke counts.
Which only helps going very fast, commuting isn't very fast.

I'd not be quite so prescriptive.

Back when I only had one bike (the SCR2, a bike designed to take narrow tyres, and go as fast as the tubby fellow on it could propel it) it was my training bike, errand running bike, commuting bike &c &c. There are compromises involved, of course, but as long as you go into them with your eyes open (and are happy with the trade offs) most bikes can do most things.

 

[albion]

I'd have suggested 42 for the rear, but somehow it does not seem to go well with carbon.

 

[RedRider]

Hi,

I'm looking at buying a set of hand built wheels based on either the Archetype or the SL23.
The bike is used for commuting in London where the roads are pretty bad although I'm careful to avoid potholes and slow down when the surface is bad.

Rider weight is 80kg (max) and the bike is carbon framed.
I do not have a panier.

Both wheelbuilders have suggested 24/28 rims and a mix of Sapim Laser and Race.

I used Aksiums for a long time (20/20 I believe) with no issues whatsoever and I've seen many on R500/R501s (http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/shimano-r500-on-a-commuter.99480/).

Would appreciate views from others give the rims I'm looking at are considered "stiff"?
Could get away with 20/24?

Thanks

Hi,
I'm no expert but I had some archetypes built up with sapim race on the rear and laser on the front. My weight hovers between 75 and 80kg so similar to yourself. The main difference is I had them built for singlespeed (so higher torque going through rear wheel according to the builder) and some light (saddlebag) touring as well as London commuting.
I was advised to go 32/32 but with 28 front being acceptable. I'm not particularly risk averse but I went 32/32 in the end and don't regret one bit. Total confidence. I've properly smacked into a couple of deep potholes (on the one time I rode this wheelset in a 'chaingang' - it happens) with no problems at all.
Either touring or commuting reliability is my first consideration.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Higher spoke count isn't, IIRC, a strength thing - the strength is coming, at least in part, from the rim, which will be overbuilt to a degree for lower spoke counts. What a high spoke count does give you is less of an impact on wheel trueness should a spoke break.. You can probably limp home on a 36 or 32 spoke wheel with a broken spoke, I doubt you could on a wheel with lower counts.

Spoke count isnt a strength thing? Mmmm the way I look at it, it comes down to strength. More spokes for heavier rider, more spokes for durability, more spokes for bad roads.... I'm talking about well built wheels where spokes are properly tensioned.

Of course we see strong wheels with 20 spokes but just look at the spokes and rims for a minute..... the spokes are at least twice the thickness of a standard off the shelve spokes. There are indeed poor quality thick spokes out there so spoke thickness should be ignore then, in fact poor quality spokes should be ignored.

What you say about being able to ride with a broken spoke in a 32 and 36 spokes wheel is very true....

Somebody said something very true, a commuting wheel is not a TT wheel so why even consider taking the risk. I don't commute but I would hate to be late for work because I chose to save 30g of spokes.

Tourers go for stronger rims and lots if spokes too so strength is the key word again.

Having said all that, I insist, you can ride a 40 spokes wheel but if they are loose spokes then you don't have a strong wheel.

When I try to stress a 20 spokes wheel I have to be careful I don't damage it but with a 36 spokes wheel I can be pretty sure that I'm not strong enough to cause any damage

 

[John the Monkey]

Of course we see strong wheels with 20 spokes but just look at the spokes and rims for a minute..... the spokes are at least twice the thickness of a standard off the shelve spokes. There are indeed poor quality thick spokes out there so spoke thickness should be ignore then, in fact poor quality spokes should be ignored.

IIRC, the strength in such a wheel is in an overbuilt rim - that varies, of course, and I daresay that a more exotic wheelset would have lighter, less strong rims with accompanying overbuilt spokes, or weight limits.

Somebody said something very true, a commuting wheel is not a TT wheel so why even consider taking the risk. I don't commute but I would hate to be late for work because I chose to save 30g of spokes.

Yup, although a well built, well maintained low spoke count wheel may not pose the risk we think it does - or the OP could be happy with taking that (hopefully small) risk.

Tourers go for stronger rims and lots if spokes too so strength is the key word again.

Again, I think that's possibly more to do with limpability and repairability (in terms of spoke count, and using standard spokes) and the stronger rim more to do with loading (a commuter isn't, one would hope, carrying anything like the load a tourer is!)

Having said all that, I insist, you can ride a 40 spokes wheel but if they are loose spokes then you don't have a strong wheel.

Absolutely! I'd sooner ride a well built 28 than a sloppily put together 36

Edit: I'd also say that higher count wheels are easier to build, in general - so I suppose we can factor that into the variables too.

I'll try and find some references, in any case, so my assertions are a bit less hand wavey.