The family shouted at the jury : “Were you not listening?”

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GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Quite a lot of people have driving convictions. I doesn't automatically make us sinister uncaring petrolhead maniacs. You can't expect the jury to comprise solely of nuns.
I think it demonstrates a tendency towards both anti-social and illegal behaviour, and an inability to drive to the required standard, otherwise there would be no need to prosecute, would there?

And, ime, many nuns are shite drivers, and I know a few with driving convictions.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
I'm not a nun (nor even the more physically achievable monk), but if you are really correct that a jury of people without a history of motoring convictions is 'impractical ', that is sad. What I think likelier is that most of us have internalised the idea that bad driving, even though it has more potential to kill than many other criminal acts, is not 'really' criminal. Which is even sadder.
Could you post that again so I can give it more than one like?
 

shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
The problem is that you can't expect a jury stuffed full of motoring convictions to be in some way more impartial {never said I did, never in fact mentioned a jury as you describe}. Quite the reverse, I'd argue: there are no shortage of motorists with speeding convictions who will claim until they're blue in the face that they were "hard done by" and will bring this attitude with them, whether it be conscious or not. {yep} They'll use the same weak justifications to excuse their own behaviour {yep} to excuse the accused - no matter what the facts are {prejudicial speculation, do,you have any factual information to back that up?} As has already been commented, this leads to the normalisation of the idea that piss poor driving is normal and excusable.{Legislation from.government down does this,,abetted by the way policing is directed & dreadful initiatives such as GMP Op Grimaldi/Considerate, the issue is the piss poor attitude from the highest levels of authority permeating down} Perhaps barring people with motoring convictions from jury service for motoring offences would be a good first step into reinforcing the idea that this is not acceptable {where do you stop that, are people with spent burglary convictions not allowed to sit on such cases, how do we evaluate the im/partiality of victims of crime to ensure fair, blind justice?} After all, that motoring conviction has already demonstrated that this person has questionable judgement in such matters {ok} - how can someone with such poor judgement be expected to be even remotely objective? {no idea, never said they could}
On my phone not got different colours to play with, my sometimes confused comments in {} in the quote.

You still seem to be perpetuating the supposition that jurys are all drivers convicted of some motoring offence that would sway their judgement.

Bringing it back to the topic for a moment, Have I missed the publication of this jury's motoring rap sheets? Some.of us are simply pouring our own prejudices onto the situation and imposing judgements on the jury based on smoke and mirrors. Aren't we also forgetting that there may well be grand/parents on that jury deliberating on the killing of a teenage boy by someone not simply going too fast but repeatedly sending and receiving texts up to seconds before they killed the lad. Is it really feasible that IF they do all have speeding tickets then these would be more of a factor in their decision than the love and protective instinct they would feel towards their own grand/children with such a dangerous reckless individual in their midst?
 

jonny jeez

Legendary Member
Jury objectivity is good reason in itself to abandon a jury based court system.

Not to mention intellect, comprehension, patience and bias.

I wouldn't enjoy being on a jury I know my own bias would inevitably come into every decision and I would be thinking of all the things i should be doing rather than sitting I a dock all day.

However, the alternative is equally unappealing.
 
Do away with the jury system in its current form entirely. Have professionally trained, legally educated jurors as a profession and use them instead. Alternatively a panel of 3 judges.

In the current system jurors can be too easily swayed, too easily confused with difficult legal points, and will almost always bring their own prejudices.

Agree. The concept and ideal of "Jury of his or her peers" is a dream at best. Lawyers engaged in court craft learn to work the jury and all their human frailities and you can't blame them.

And 99.99% of those gainfully engaged elsewhere chosen to do jury duty prefer not to be there in the first place.
 
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Origamist

Legendary Member
  • An account from the comments section of Kentonline. If it's an accurate account of the admissable evidence, it makes the decision of not-guilty seem even more perverse.


    22/03/2015 14:25:10
    hissingsid wrote:
    The following are matters of public record, having been heard within the trial.

    There is a time period of 80 seconds between the last use of SINDEN’S phone, and the time of the report to Kent Police of the collision. This does not account for time spent with the BT operator, which could not be ascertained by the police investigators.

    SINDEN gave an account to police in interview during which he stated that he drove from his mother’s house, to the junction with Station Road, where he turned right. He emphatically denied using his mobile phone past the junction, having thrown it onto his passenger seat. He further stated that objects within his van fell onto the phone, and clearly suggested that those items caused the activations on his phone.

    SINDEN’S legal position was maintained up until the trial. During the trial, an expert demonstrated that the phone activations suggested by SINDEN were highly unlikely.

    The exact time of the collision was unknown, and could not be proved.

    Daniel was visible from 150 - 160 metres away; certainly within 55 metres.

    Daniel was wearing black/dark blue cycling clothing, but he was wearing shorts and his lower legs would have been light in colour and more visible, particularly as they were moving.

    The Highway Code says the stopping distance at 40mph is 36 metres

    The speed of SINDEN’S vehicle could not be scientifically proved at any time.

    SINDEN stopped his vehicle 125 metres past the collision scene.

    There was no forensic evidence presented to the jury by the defence that proved that Daniel Squire had been on the kerb. The prosecutor raised the question, and the jury was directed to consider by the judge, whether an experienced rider such as Daniel would have attempted to ride on a footpath that was about one foot wide, was overgrown, and strewn with debris. There were no marks in the mud leading to the footpath, nor marks in the debris or muddy tyre marks on the path.

    At no time, before the trial, did SINDEN explain to the police that Daniel rode off of the kerb into the road. In fact, he stated to several witnesses at the scene that he simply ‘did not see’ Daniel. In one account he even stated that Daniel swerved out in front of him, apparently to avoid a drain cover, and that he (SINDEN) had swerved to try to avoid him but was unable to do so.

    When SINDEN hit Daniel, he was 0.67 metres away from the kerb; so how close was SINDEN to the kerb before he swerved? Even the defence expert stated that Daniel should have been seen by SINDEN, assuming that he had been in the road, and not coming off the path.

    Apparently, at no point before the trial, did SINDEN tell the police that he stopped in a layby to send and receive texts. The time he says he spent in the layby conveniently accounts mathematically for time that he could not previously account for. The judge drew the attention of the jury to this fact during her summing up.

    What is clear is this; SINDEN presented an explanation to the police that investigations indicated he was using his phone at or immediately before the collision. Once he was faced with evidence IN COURT that indicated that his explanation of the phone activation (by articles on his seat) was unlikely, he decided to change his story. He then admitted in court that he HAD been using his mobile phone, but that he had been doing so further down the road, but not at the time of the collision.

    The judge accurately summed up all of the evidence presented by the CPS, and drew the attention of the jury to the changes in SINDEN’S account. She was explicit about the timings and distances involved.

    Many have commented about the CPS lawyer, what about the defence? They simply presented several ‘what if’s?’ to the jury, and then sat back. They knew what couldn’t be proved, and so threw as much mud around as possible to confuse the jury. The defence lawyer was spoken to by the judge several times because of his behaviour, and he was blatantly dishonest when he told the jury that the CPS had put in an extra charge of careless driving because the police weren’t sure of their case; in fact the judge put the extra charge in following a legal ruling from another case. But it sounds good doesn’t it?

    The article at https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/somethings-not-quite-right-here/ is pretty accurate, apart from the timing (80 seconds, not 55) and the punctuation (no full stops between the words in the text). But the issue here is that SINDEN was caught by his own story, and then changed it in court to account for the timings. It seems that all of the questions raised by BTK were dealt with in court.

    In fact, all of the questions raised here on KoL were presented to the court; the jury simply had to do as the judge told them and apply some common sense. And there, perhaps, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, lies the problem.

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/deal/news/van-driver-cleared-of-causing-33772/#comments
 
OP
OP
glenn forger

glenn forger

Guest
Sinden changed his story several times, lied to the police, lied about the last text, lied about his phone and claimed not to have seen the cyclist then saw him ride off the pavement.
 

albion

Guru
Location
South Tyneside
Yes, the whole not guilty thing sounded quite disgusting.

Normally you can see a reason for it, however slight. This time there is not even a slight.
 
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