What do you want in the place of cars?

[presta]

The suggestion is that if we limited cars to only those who either lived outside towns or were disabled or both, then there would be far fewer cars on the road, as the majority of people don't fit into either of those groups.

Got it in one.

I'm always bemused that whenever anyone suggests alternatives to cars all you get is a litany of examples of where they aren't suitable rather than an acknowledgement of the cases where they are.

"Cars are a load of rubbish because you can't fly across the Atlantic to America in one"

"Planes are useless because you can't go to Tesco in one"

"Screwdrivers are useless because you can't knock nails in with them!" says the man using a hammer to put a screw in.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Gotcha. You just annoy the people who live in the next road over.

No, the parents who choose to drive their kids to school do that through inconsiderate parking after they’ve already clogged the roads on the way there.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

That's how I came to stop driving, the DVLA Medical Centre had my licence for ~5 months, and by the time I got it back again I'd grown used to doing without it.


Most do.

View attachment 709825

If the only ones with cars were those living in the country the majority of cars would be off the road. Much the same must be true for disability.

About 10.5 million live outside urban conurbations, that qualifies as 'many' for me.

 

[classic33]

Got it in one.

I'm always bemused that whenever anyone suggests alternatives to cars all you get is a litany of examples of where they aren't suitable rather than an acknowledgement of the cases where they are.

"Cars are a load of rubbish because you can't fly across the Atlantic to America in one"

"Planes are useless because you can't go to Tesco in one"

"Screwdrivers are useless because you can't knock nails in with them!" says the man using a hammer to put a screw in.

What's to stop you cycling to the shops, bringing your shopping home on the bike(or in a trailer)?

 

[Alex321]

About 10.5 million live outside urban conurbations, that qualifies as 'many' for me.

But then nobody said it is "not many", so not sure what point you are making.

It is a minority. Roughly 1/6 of the population if that figure is correct.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I don’t accept this both parents working thing either. Both my parents worked, as did those of friends. We still walked, cycled, or took the bus to school.

 

[icowden]

I don’t accept this both parents working thing either. Both my parents worked, as did those of friends. We still walked, cycled, or took the bus to school.

Another issue is that Busses work out expensive. If I sent the kids on the bus it would cost me about £550 per term or £9 per day. Driving costs me 15p per day.

 

[Alex321]

I don’t accept this both parents working thing either. Both my parents worked, as did those of friends. We still walked, cycled, or took the bus to school.

Many families had both parents working in those days, but it wasn't nearly as common as it is now.

But it isn't just that more families have both parents working, it is also (and probably more importantly) about parents not trusting that their children will be safe walking or cycling.

Another issue is that Busses work out expensive. If I sent the kids on the bus it would cost me about £550 per term or £9 per day. Driving costs me 15p per day.

School buses were always free when I was a child. Depending on where we lived, it would either be a free bus pass for the relevant public bus route, or a free dedicated service - both being only for kids who lived more than 3 miles from the school (no buses for primary school which was always closer than 3 miles).

 

[Andy in Germany]

Another issue is that Busses work out expensive. If I sent the kids on the bus it would cost me about £550 per term or £9 per day. Driving costs me 15p per day.

This is an advantage here; 49€ a month gives us use of all local transport nationwide.

That said, 15p sounds low; does that include depreciation, maintenance costs, tax and insurance? If so it sounds like the rest of us are subsidising cars more than I thought.

Equally, the time saving for us being able to send the kids out in the morning to find their own way to school and other activities is considerable; if you added that up as a cost too, then the economics may change.

 

[chriswoody]

Another issue is that Busses work out expensive. If I sent the kids on the bus it would cost me about £550 per term or £9 per day. Driving costs me 15p per day.

I just can't get over how expensive and ill thought out Britains public transport is. Here in Germany, my kids go to a school on the other side of town, just over 5 kilometers away. We've bought a yearly bus pass for our kids which costs €300 for each child, the best part is, that because we live over 4km away, the town reimburse us for that, so making it free.

Along with subsidised buses, we also have the trains here that are subsidised. I work over 45km away in the big city and I commute by riding to the train station, popping my folding bike on the train for free, then riding the last few kilometers from the train station to work. 10 years ago a monthly train ticket for my region cost me €180. Then five years ago they created a jobticket, so my train ticket was deducted straight from my pay packet before tax, so reducing my monthly bill to €110. Then this year the government introduced the €49 a month Deutschland ticket, meaning you can travel the entire country on regional trains for just €49. My regional government thought they could better that and created their own job ticket which has all of the benefits of the countrywide ticket, but is deducted like before from my wages. So long story short, I now pay €33 a month for a ticket that enables me to travel anywhere in the country if I so wished.

Along with that is the excellent bike provisions on the trains, essentially folding bikes are free and regular bikes are €5.50 a day, with no pre-booking needed. This is all on the slower regional trains though, but essentially taking a car to work for me is a complete no-brainer. Heres the lower deck bike space on my daily train:

 

[Alex321]

This is an advantage here; 49€ a month gives us use of all local transport nationwide.

That said, 15p sounds low; does that include depreciation, maintenance costs, tax and insurance? If so it sounds like the rest of us are subsidising cars more than I thought.

Equally, the time saving for us being able to send the kids out in the morning to find their own way to school and other activities is considerable; if you added that up as a cost too, then the economics may change.

15p per day can only be considering fuel costs and nothing else. And even then, he must have a very economic car (or electric).

The cost of owning a car that is road legal is more than 15p per day even if you never drive it. Tax may be under 10p per day (mine is £30 per year), but insurance won't be less than 30p per day for any car nowadays, and very few will be anywhere near that low (mine is £579 for a year fully comp, so a little over £1.50 per day).

Depreciation of course depends on the age, model and condition of the car, it can be anything from negligible up to several thousand a year (so several £ per day).


The standard MOT cost now is about £55 - which is 15p per day all by itself. And if your car is young enough not to need that, then it is less than 3 years old, ad depreciation will be in the thousands per year range.

Maintenance costs are going to depend on how much you drive of course. But just as an example, my 8 year old Insignia estate had a full service and MOT yesterday, and needed 2 new front tyres - total cost a little under £700 (the tyres were £276 of that), so that is nearly £2 per day if that was the annual cost.

So overall, I think my family sized diesel estate, not particularly flash, old enough for depreciation to be negligible, costs me in the region of £4 per day to run, not counting fuel. Diesel is currently around £7.50 per gallon, and I get about 50-55 miles per gallon, so about 15p/mile in fuel costs.

An EV will be less, because maintenance costs should be lower, and fuel costs will be much lower. But insurance will be just as high, and depreciation will be higher.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Driving costs me 15p per day.

At 8 miles a litre, and £1.50 a litre, that means your round trip is approx 0.8 miles. Why on earth would you drive that distance?

Plus don’t forget your annual insurance and car tax and service costs pro rata into a daily cost.

 

[Alex321]

At 8 miles a litre, and £1.50 a litre, that means your round trip is approx 0.8 miles. Why on earth would you drive that distance?

I think he can only be talking about an EV here. If the bus fare would be £9 per day, even for several kids put together, the distance must be quite a bit more than that. Though a decent modern car should be getting more than 10 miles/litre - my Insignia estate gets 11-15 depending on the journey, my wife's micra gets slightly more.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Though a decent modern car should be getting more than 10 miles/litre

Warmed up and on a decent non urban run. Won’t be anywhere near that with cold engine and / or urban.

 

[mjr]

I just can't get over how expensive and ill thought out Britains public transport is. Here in Germany, my kids go to a school on the other side of town, just over 5 kilometers away. We've bought a yearly bus pass for our kids which costs €300 for each child, the best part is, that because we live over 4km away, the town reimburse us for that, so making it free.

The UK seems to be heading the way of north America, where putting children on public transport to school sees parents prosecuted for neglect. Although many "school bus" services in England are technically listed as public transport services (I believe this has benefits for the operator) but adults report problems using them, such as skipping intermediate stops, refusing boarding at the terminal stops and ignoring hails in hail+ride zones.