Dutch Roundabouts

[Davidsw8]

Saw this on BBC this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22347184

Looks very similar to plans TFL had for the North side roundabout off Lambeth Bridge, that they scrapped.

I think, in theory, it looks like a really positive change. In practice, I wonder how much notice motorists will take of giving cyclists priority.

Could be really good though eh?

 

[dondare]

Law enforced - new roundabouts not necessary.
Law not enforced - new roundabouts won't help.

 

[Risex4]

Not entirely sure. I think its a cultural thing as much as a "structural"/law thing. Whats the proportion of the Dutch population which cycles?

I actually fear that a roundabout that gives cyclists a theoretical right of way could go horribly horribly wrong on a road network where cars have always been given priority - especially on roundabouts which were designed specifically to keep motor traffic free flowing on and off of a given junction.

 

[veloevol]

I actually fear that a roundabout that gives cyclists a theoretical right of way could go horribly horribly wrong on a road network where cars have always been given priority - especially on roundabouts which were designed specifically to keep motor traffic free flowing on and off of a given junction.

I too think the design puts too much trust in driver awareness but perhaps this could be the start of a cultural change in urban centres.

 

[DCLane]

Looking at the trial one, I can forsee some horrendous accidents. Right of way is really unclear and personally, I'd be concerned using one.

i.e. motorist speeds up coming off the roundabout as no-ones waiting at the crossing. BANG. Didn't look for the cyclist/expected them to stop.

 

[Risex4]

Precisely, given the cyclist any sense of right of way is intrinsically dangerous. Treat us the same as all other vehicles on the road and work on integrating us more. Don't separate us and confuse matters further.

 

[oldfatfool]

Not to mention the rear end shunt every time a driver did stop.

 

[Profpointy]

really really bad idea. Instead of being on the roundabout with (at least in theory) right of way, you are now off the roundabout, having to stop at each and every junction, but still in theory with right of way, which if you exercise, you will get splatted. Those of us (ie me) choosing to remain on the roady bit will then get even more "get on the path" crap from the motorists, who will then feel justified in barging us off.

Stupid idea for UK, might be OK in flatland where the whole cycling dynamic is different I suppose

 

[BentMikey]

I can tell you this much - a good Dutch design will work far better than any of the shite we have at the moment. It'll be safer and better for all. On the other hand, TfL will fcuk it up big time, and therefore it won't be a good Dutch design, and it won't work.

This is why so many of you are against Dutch style facilities - your expectations are set by the utter rubbish found here in the UK. It's shameful, and it makes me angry that idiots in road design could accept and tolerate such utterly negligent and dangerous work. Riding in the Netherlands is a joy, and it doesn't matter whether you're one of the fast confident risk takers that predominate on here, a very fast club rider, or just a more ordinary and normal person, or even a child cycling to school.

 

[Buddfox]

really really bad idea. Instead of being on the roundabout with (at least in theory) right of way, you are now off the roundabout, having to stop at each and every junction, but still in theory with right of way, which if you exercise, you will get splatted. Those of us (ie me) choosing to remain on the roady bit will then get even more "get on the path" crap from the motorists, who will then feel justified in barging us off.

Stupid idea for UK, might be OK in flatland where the whole cycling dynamic is different I suppose

Just out of interest, do you use the roundabout at Lambeth Bridge where they're proposing this be trialled? That roundabout already has a zebra crossing across every exit (as shown in the example) and car drivers etc. using it have managed to deal with the endless stopping at the zebra crossings without much trauma (that I have ever seen). At that junction, if you stay in the traffic, you'll find yourself trying to pick your way through cars, vans, trucks and the busses which come north over Lambeth Bridge and will be waiting for the pedestrians and cyclists to cross where they will now have right of way.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

Looks a bit messy

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?id=34392

 

[BenM]

Looks a bit messy

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?id=34392

Interesting... I wonder where that came from... " Lingwood explained that, whereas pedestrians have priority over vehicles on a zebra crossing, vehicles have priority over cyclists."

We had a couple of roundabouts here with a paint segregated lane for cyclists for a while in Weymouth. The locals are so incompetent when behind the wheel (and downright antagonistic to any change in road layout) that the idea failed completely.

Road schemes like these need intelligent drivers - something that often seems in short supply in the UK.

B.

 

[summerdays]

I think that zebra crossings need to be modified (perhaps have a different versions in the same way we have different crossings such as pegasus and puffin etc) if they are going to be incorporated into the roundabout design as I don't think cyclists should be allowed to cycle across all zebra crossings.

There are 3 in Bristol that I can think of that are used by cyclists (well obviously there are a lot more than that but these 3 are different).
One is just off the Bristol and Bath path, and it is the dropped curb to access the road having left the path - drivers seem to stop at that one to let cyclists cross even if you wait well back from the crossing looking for a gap.
One is by the MOD and is twice as wide as a standard zebra, and the footpath is marked with pedestrians one side and bikes the other. I'm usually accessing the cyclepath (which runs around the MOD) at that point so just use half of the zebra to get up onto the path, but it isn't that busy so I can time my arrival so that it avoids cars most of the time. But I'm assuming that they are expecting cars to wait for both.
The last is a zebra crossing on a shared cycle/pedestrian area crossing Redcliffe St, near St Mary Redcliffe church, I'm completely uncertain of what the cars legally should be doing, but there are so many pedestrians and bikes around (when I use it) that they to give way to both (it is just off a busy roundabout).

In all three places there seems to be acceptance of cyclists using the zebra crossing.

 

[Cyclopathic]

Looking at the trial one, I can forsee some horrendous accidents. Right of way is really unclear and personally, I'd be concerned using one.

i.e. motorist speeds up coming off the roundabout as no-ones waiting at the crossing. BANG. Didn't look for the cyclist/expected them to stop.

I thought that. And it seems that there is a risk of drivers who are on the RAB will not be ready for it when the car exiting in front of them has to stop to let the cyclist cross.
I like the idea of this but the practicalities seem fraught with potential problems. I think it would not work here properly (as I assume it does in the Netherlands) because we do not have the same relationship or attitudes between drivers and cyclists. Perhaps there is a way of using the present system but making it safer for cyclists. I have no idea how though.

 

[snorri]

really really bad idea. Instead of being on the roundabout with (at least in theory) right of way, you are now off the roundabout, having to stop at each and every junction, but still in theory with right of way, which if you exercise, you will get splatted. Those of us (ie me) choosing to remain on the roady bit will then get even more "get on the path" crap from the motorists, who will then feel justified in barging us off.

It is easier to get on to the roundabout due to not having to give way to motor traffic on the roundabout, also cycle and motor traffic paths cross at right angles, reducing the risk of smidsy type collisions.
You do not make clear why you would wish to go round with the motor vehicles and be subject to the same delays as them when you have to give way to cyclists as you arrive at, and leave the roundabout.