Helmets!

[dellzeqq]

On Monday I meet with the Martlets insurers.

This is one of those meetings in which both 'sides' believe they can persuade the other.

I'm not at all interested in the 'helmet debate'. It bores me to tears. In practical terms I'm not for perusading - if the insurers insist on helmets then the Martlets will have to find other insurers or there will be no ride. It's something that is beyond my control.

I would like to have a couple of facts at my disposal, though.

I think that cycling fatalities run at about 120 a year in the UK.

How many of these do not involve motor vehicles? I've looked at Olaf's spreadsheet and it suggests that it's not many http://cycling-intelligence.com/2011/03/16/cycling-in-london-how-dangerous-is-it/

How many of the non-motor vehicle deaths are head injuries?

Any help gratefully received

Simon

 

[surfdude]

a young father in our village had a test ride over christmas on his new bike with no helmet and had a slow speed fall ,hit the kerb head first and got brain damage . he came out of hospital 2 weeks ago . still cant speak very well or walk properly . doctors reckon if he had helmet on he would have been ok . luckily for the wife and kids he did survie this .

 

[PaulB]

I suffered a serious head injury while wearing no helmet. But then again, why would I have been since I was virtually static in the kitchen of my own home at the time. I do wear a helmet on every bike ride and always have but my experience is that any aspect of life can be extremely dangerous so I can see both sides of the helmet issue here.

 

[dellzeqq]

peeps! Concentrate. I do not give a monkeys about the debate. (For what it's worth I've been saved a head injury by a helmet and I no longer wear one).

Numbers please if you have them. To repeat..................

I think that cycling fatalities run at about 120 a year in the UK.

How many of these do not involve motor vehicles? I've looked at Olaf's spreadsheet and it suggests that it's not many http://cycling-intel...angerous-is-it/

How many of the non-motor vehicle deaths are head injuries?

 

[frank9755]

On Monday I meet with the Martlets insurers.

This is one of those meetings in which both 'sides' believe they can persuade the other.

I'm not at all interested in the 'helmet debate'. It bores me to tears. In practical terms I'm not for perusading - if the insurers insist on helmets then the Martlets will have to find other insurers or there will be no ride. It's something that is beyond my control.

I would like to have a couple of facts at my disposal, though.

I think that cycling fatalities run at about 120 a year in the UK.

How many of these do not involve motor vehicles? I've looked at Olaf's spreadsheet and it suggests that it's not many http://cycling-intel...angerous-is-it/

How many of the non-motor vehicle deaths are head injuries?

Any help gratefully received

Simon

Sorry I've no statistics, yet (and no survival anecdotes to share either!).

However, just wanted to flag that you need on-road fatalities / head-injuries not involving vehicles, as mountain biking obviously has much greater non-vehicular risks.

Will have a search later to see if I can find something - although I have a hunch that the figure will be zero, unless you count the people who happened to be cycling when their time came (eg heart attack, stroke, etc)

 

[srw]

"But you're paying us a premium of £1000. If one of your riders suffers a serious head injury and can blame it on someone else there we'll be down £5 million. We know it's a very very very very remote possibility, and there's no robust scientific data either way, but the common-sense view is that a helmet might save us £5 million."

At this level, insurance is more about emotion and underwriter gut feel than about hard fact.

 

[ufkacbln]

a young father in our village had a test ride over christmas on his new bike with no helmet and had a slow speed fall ,hit the kerb head first and got brain damage . he came out of hospital 2 weeks ago . still cant speak very well or walk properly . doctors reckon if he had helmet on he would have been ok . luckily for the wife and kids he did survie this .

January 2010

Girl, 11, dies after slipping on ice

• An 11-year-old girl died today after she slipped on ice outside her primary school, police said.
  
  The youngster, named locally as Naeemah Accha, suffered a massive head injury when she hit the ground yesterday outside St Michael with St John Primary School in Blackburn, Lancashire.
  
  She was taken to Manchester children's hospital where she died earlier today.
  
  A spokeswoman for Lancashire police said it appeared Naeemah slipped on ice outside the school but officers are still looking into the circumstances.
  
  She added: "At this stage it appears to be a tragic accident and our thoughts are with the family at this difficult time."
  
  Naeemah's classmates were told about her death today and all pupils and staff are being assisted by "support team" from Blackburn council.

Same question must surely arise ?

Surely there is a similar argument that this tragic case would also be prevented or mitigated if the child had been wearing a helmet?

 

[coffeejo]

I doubt that arguments and statistics about non-cycling activities will get you anywhere in this case. Can't help with any stats but the more specific you can be, the better (I'd imagine).

Oh, and if I worked for the insurance company, I'd be inclined to say it's not just about fatalities, but injury - am I right in thinking that the payout for, say, a quadraplegic, would be greater than if s/he died?

 

[Smokin Joe]

The only way to get a true figure is to look at the one area where all accidents do not involve a motor vehicle, and that is in racing. The riders all crash multiple times a season, slow speed tumbles in the peloton, high speed crashes on mountain descents, falls on cobbles, trips over the bars after hitting a prone rider etc.

Now if there were anything but the very rare instance of a serious injury or death before helmet use they were kept pretty quiet because no one seemed to hear about them. So my estimate is that the number of lives saved by helmet use is so low it would not make a statistic, despite the claims of The Undead and their "I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't been wearing..."

And I would be very wary about quoting what doctors say, they know a lot about head injuries but little or nothing about how you impact the ground when you fall from a bicycle.

 

[ufkacbln]

Sorry, couldn't leave that one unchallenged!

Back on topic...

I assume you are aware of Chapman's work on CycleHelmets.org


The interesting one for me is a paper by Sharon Thornhill in Glasgow.

She (and her team) looked a ALL admissions for head injury and then at the recovery, but the demographic of the cohort is very interesting:

The most common causes of injury were falls (43%) or assaults (34%); alcohol was often involved (61%), and a quarter reported treatment for a previous head injury.

Cycling was not mentioned as significant


However 'Hot off the Pres" and about to be published in Australia is research that backs up the claim that modern helmets are less effective and can cause injury when compared with older designs.

This article also suggests previu studies were flawed, helmets do not meet the claims, cause neck injury and also rotational injury to the brain.

Of course one really need to see the original article and to review it, but even if part of the evidence holds up to scrutiny?

 

[srw]

Oh, and if I worked for the insurance company, I'd be inclined to say it's not just about fatalities, but injury - am I right in thinking that the payout for, say, a quadraplegic, would be greater than if s/he died?

Yes. That's my first extra suggestion. Don't think about death. Insurance companies (in the nicest possible way, obviously), quite like death. It's cheap. A death will set us back a small six-figure sum. A serious injury requiring lifelong care (especially if that life isn't shortened) will cost a large seven-figure sum.

The second extra suggestion, if you haven't done so already is to talk to the pros. Bike Events run events with tens of thousands of people and don't require a helmet. The BHF runs a dozen or more cycling events and don't require a helmet. Who does their insurance?

 

[frank9755]

Best I can find from a quick look is some North American stats which suggest that, if you assumed the same splits in the UK, about 8 cyclists per year die from a head injury not caused by a motor vehicle.

1. This would include mountain bikers

2. 90% of cycling fatalities are motor vehicle related. This is widely cited on the internet and seems to be based on a study in Toronto which got referenced on Freakonomics. I couldn't find the figure in the original but have not searched right through it.

3. 70% of cycling fatalities are head injuries. I can't find the source for this one but it says here it us US Govt. Obviously we don't know if this split would be the same for vehicle vs non-vehicle deaths.

 

[srw]

This article also suggests previu studies were flawed, helmets do not meet the claims, cause neck injury and also rotational injury to the brain.

Of course one really need to see the original article and to review it, but even if part of the evidence holds up to scrutiny?

Sorry. Not relevant. Don't even go there with an insurance company. They won't be interested. Keep it very simple indeed.

Which company are you talking to? Is it the broker or the underwriter? Your approach ought to be different with each.

 

[downfader]

peeps! Concentrate. I do not give a monkeys about the debate. (For what it's worth I've been saved a head injury by a helmet and I no longer wear one).

Numbers please if you have them. To repeat..................

I think that cycling fatalities run at about 120 a year in the UK.

How many of these do not involve motor vehicles? I've looked at Olaf's spreadsheet and it suggests that it's not many http://cycling-intel...angerous-is-it/

How many of the non-motor vehicle deaths are head injuries?

The guys on the CTC forum have been good at finding stats for me in the past:

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=41

Have a quick search through there or ask specifics.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

You could try these sites.

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/cycling/facts-figures.aspx

http://www.bma.org.uk/health_promotion_ethics/transport/promotingsafecycling.jsp?page=1