Knaves

[Yellow Fang]

I have been reading Great Expectations recently. In it young Pip is made to feel ashamed by Estella for calling jacks knaves in a game of cards. Knaves was apparently the posh name for jacks back then. Then there was that rhyme by Lewis Carroll that goes something like:

The Queen of Hearts,
She baked some tarts,
All on a Summer's day.
The Knave of Hearts,
He stole the tarts,
And took them clean away.

It's quite interesting we all call them Jacks then (or maybe it's not).

Then there's Sir Fred Goodwin. Radio 4 said that he is now not a knight, but one of an even more exclusive membership, a knave. Is this technically correct? I can't find anything on the interweb to say that a defrocked knight is called a knave.

 

[Dayvo]

For some odd reason, I've always hated the Jack of clubs!

Taken from Wikipedia:

Before this time, the lowest court card in an English deck was officially termed the Knave, but its abbreviation ("Kn") was too similar to the King ("K") and thus this term did not adapt well to indices. However, from the 17th century the Knave had often been termed the Jack, a term borrowed from the English Renaissance card game All Fours where the Knave of trumps has this name. All Fours was considered a game of the lower classes, so the use of the term Jack at one time was considered vulgar. The use of indices, however, encouraged a formal change from Knave to Jack in English language decks. In other languages, this conflict does not exist: the French tarot deck for instance labels its lowest court card the "Valet", which is the "squire" to the Knight card (not seen in 52-card decks) as the Queen is paired with the King. This name, abbreviated "V", is used for modern 52 card packs in the French language.

 

[Beebo]

I am led to believe that Knave was the name of a poor quality "Gentlemans Periodical" in the 1980's, similar to Fiesta.

 

[colly]

I am led to believe that Knave was the name of a poor quality "Gentlemans Periodical" in the 1980's, similar to Fiesta.

'' Led to believe '' Ha ha ha ha ha ..............yes of course.