RLJ'ing Pedestrians

[Amanda P]

Automatic responsibility works elsewhere (e.g. Netherlands) so could work here. Clearly there have to be lmits to it.

It's not automatic responsibility. It's placing the burden of proof on the driver.

In the Netherlands, Belgium and elsewhere, in an accident involving a car and a bike, it's assumed that the driver is to blame unless the driver can prove otherwise . That's not the same as "automatic responsibility".

In other words, to escape having to pay for the cyclist's damages, the driver must prove the accident was the cyclist's fault.

Given that an accident caused by a cyclist is unlikely to result in a driver's severe injury or death, while an accident caused by a driver is very likely to result in the cyclist's severe injury or death, this burden of proof seems entirely reasonable to me.

 

[Origamist]

Strict liability, in other words.

 

[mangaman]

Just been into Beverley and at the same junction 2 sets of people jumped the lights and wandered over the road on red. I waited for green, and walked over safely and past them.

"Didn't get far doing that did you?" was met by blank expressions all round.

The roads don't need to be any safer. They are if everyone follows the rules. It's only when impatient (slow) tossers chose to flout the rules that incidents occur.

Why can they get mown down in front of me?

Because when the local rag asks for witnesses for a story I'd give them both barrels.

God it's hot out there too!!

I always cross the road where I like if it's safe. There's no law against jay walking here.

I can't quite understand the drift of your post. The "RLJers" as you call them crossed perfectly safely and legally didn't they?

I think if you said "Didn't get far doing that did you?" to me in that situation I would have given you a blank expression.

The last few paragraphs of your post don't seem to make sense - unless the sun has got to you a bit

 

[rich p]

I, more often than not, don't push the ped button as I've invariably already crossed before the lights change. I'm big enough and ugly enough to look after myself in jaywalking mode.

 

[Origamist]

Like rich p, I'm big, ugly and an assertive pedestrian. However, not everbody is: the elderly, children, people with physical impairments etc can all find negotiating traffic difficult.

 

[Arch]

It's not automatic responsibility. It's placing the burden of proof on the driver.

In the Netherlands, Belgium and elsewhere, in an accident involving a car and a bike, it's assumed that the driver is to blame unless the driver can prove otherwise . That's not the same as "automatic responsibility".

If you hadn't got in first, I was going to get this straight. People seem unable to understand anything less than black and white in terms of apportioning blame...

Of course, my limited experience of the continent suggests that a much bigger proportion of the population is simply more sensible and patient, whether on four wheels, two, or two feet....

 

[campbellab]

Apparently my dad and uncle got booed by a crowd of swiss once in Geneva for crossing before the lights changed...

Is crossing at a pedestrian when it's not green worse than crossing when it is green without checking?

I dont have any issues with crossing without the lights I have to cross worse roads in worse conditions without 'aid'. The only time I worry about it is when young people are also at the crossing and might lead from my example without looking for themselves.

If you wanted to make life more convenient for peds use more zebra crossings? Could really screw up traffic flow if you had a steady stream of people using it at regular intervals rather than bunching up and all crossing in 10 seconds every few minutes.

 

[mangaman]

Apparently my dad and uncle got booed by a crowd of swiss once in Geneva for crossing before the lights changed...

Is crossing at a pedestrian when it's not green worse than crossing when it is green without checking.

Good for them - I'd like to get booed by a Swiss crowd for some reason. It shows how petty they are to get het up over such a trivial thing.

Jaywalking is illegal in Switzerland though - according to Google

However walking around a town or city when I feel I'm safe to cross seems so natural and right that I would do it.

I guess I'm slightly less insistant on it than theclaud. I think peds have to adapt to some extent to the urban environment - I would take responsibility if I blindly strolled into a road without looking and got run over by a car, or knocked off a cyclist.

It was amazing when I was in Bruges recently and almost all traffic was cyclists. Everyone (who was from Bruges) stopped and looked to see if there was a bike coming before crossing, rather than relying on hearing a motor noise which is default behaviour in this country

 

[Davidc]

I don't think so - that people should be able to walk around and survive without being constantly vigilant seems an entirely moderate and sensible position to me. The notion that we should shape our lives, spaces and societies around people moving dangerous and polluting vehicles around at speed for no good reason is the barmy one. I was kinda joking about the higher speed limit for bikes - it's true that I don't really see a need for a bicycle speed limit at all, but I do think that some cyclists are in danger of identifying too much with motorists - becoming drivers on bikes, as it were. Cycling fast is nice, but we should not expect pedestrians to get out of the way for it.

I think that makes you an extremist by UK standards!

To see a real change in any of this needs a fundamental change in atttitude by the majority of people, followed by a political will to act.

It might happen, one day, but I see no sign of it at present!

I quite accept the comments about liability in The Netherlands etc. and of course any presumption of liability has to be subject to a right for the driver to prove it was the pedestrian or cyclist's fault. One important thing is that just knowing that you are presumed liable does concentrate the mind - it always does for me anyway!

Here it would probably just increase the number of hit-and-runs.

 

[Amanda P]

I think there's one of those little European principalities (Monte Carlo? Lichtenstein? Andora?) where everyone's car registration number is published in a booklet together with their name and address. You can buy the booklet in any newsagents.

Apparently, this encourages people to drive and park sensibly, because anyone can easily find out who a car belongs to.

Would this help here?

 

[skwerl]

I think there's one of those little European principalities (Monte Carlo? Lichtenstein? Andora?) where everyone's car registration number is published in a booklet together with their name and address. You can buy the booklet in any newsagents.

Apparently, this encourages people to drive and park sensibly, because anyone can easily find out who a car belongs to.

Would this help here?

It's that tiny principality called Switzerland!

 

[Arch]

I think there's one of those little European principalities (Monte Carlo? Lichtenstein? Andora?) where everyone's car registration number is published in a booklet together with their name and address. You can buy the booklet in any newsagents.

Apparently, this encourages people to drive and park sensibly, because anyone can easily find out who a car belongs to.

Would this help here?

Wow, so I could look up the woman too busy texting this morning to notice the lights had changed to green and all the cars in front had moved off?

(Annoyingly, she did notice and move off, seconds before I could reach to knock on her side window and tell her...)

 

[hackbike 666]

I think they are really stupid when they cross the road while using their mobiles.