The LEGAL way of handling this junction?

[Sheffield_Tiger]

I'm just wondering about the legality of this junction and the legalities of negotiating it

I want to turn right and certainly there exists a cycle lane for not turning left
There is no marked entry into the pedestrianised zone straight ahead for cycles
There are no "cyclists dismount" signs anywhere (yay!)

Turning right can be the only option otherwise the path would lead into a busy pedestrianised zone

If you need a closer look around, street view is here

Now, as you can see, the cycle lane shares a "stop" line at the lights - cyclists are required to stop at red as there is a pedestrian crossing - makes sense so far...

So..stop at red. Lights change, the green light is a left arrow but there is a sign "except cyclists" so off we pedal across the cycle lane over the reservation (reservation currently removed and replaced but layout stays same)

We reach a "give way" line - 2 parallel dashed lines, importantly this is NOT a stop line (it can't be)

Now, due to the phasing and the forced turnings, when my lights are green, so are those of the road that I meet at the give way line, and traffic is unrelenting at rush hour - until the lights for that traffic turn to red. The traffic going from left to right stops, and thus at the give way marking I can set off, no?

There are no other lights directed at me

HOWEVER.....when I set off and turn right, the fact that the road traffic is on a red light also means that the pedestrian crossing that I am to ride over is on the green man


Okay, so the way that I handle it is quite simple - when the way is clear I go. That means I give way to pedestrians on the crossing, but with no pedestrians I ride over the crossing while it's on green. I DON'T pass any red lights in my path however.

Am I technically in the wrong? Or is the junction quite odd?
I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, the road layout allowing for common sense (although most cyclists seem to carry on straight ahead and down the pedestrianised Moor)

 

[Sheffield_Tiger]

Oh, out of interest on the street view, cross over and then look back at the road we've just come from and you'll see another issue with the junction (this time a definite illegal manoever) with the red car.....happens all the time, then they sit blocking the cycle lane entrance

 

[marinyork]

If you look very carefully you'll see it's a dutch ramp or whatever they are called with a cut through added so that bikes can turn right in two directions -it's just they labelled it very badly. The plethora of lines appeared later on this junction because you used to get naughty little boys and girls in their cars trying to circumnavigate the council's one way system and drive straight on (like the junction used to be) and this was also quite dangerous for cyclists. It still happens all the time, just white lines make it slightly clearer they shouldn't be doing this. Really they should design it better with all the new work, which brings me onto a similar problem blights the facility they've just rebuilt 50 yards down the road where the planners weren't smart enough to realise that cyclists might want to turn right out of a road and not just right into it even though people told them this.

 

[Tigerbiten]

I know another junction similar to that.
Its Here in Northampton
Your ok if you go straight across the junction from the conta-flow cycle lane.
That's the normal/expected route for bikes
But if you want to turn right down Cheyne Walk then the pedestrian crossing to the right is at green for the peds.
If you get delayed by the pedestrians, then you get in conflict with traffic coming the otherway wanting to turn right up York Road.

Luck .........

 

[HLaB]

Your thinking about it too hard ST, as marinyork says there is a ramp on the other side of the junction which would enable the cyclist to enter the ped zone or loop round (turn left ! ) to go right. WRT the lights when they are green for you (the left turn arrow) you can then move forward to the give way line and then when the other direction goes red you can cross in the intergreen (the safety period between the main road light going red and the ped light going green); its perfectly legal to do so as you are beyond the stop line. As marinyork also says the junction is poorly designed in terms of cars still being able to go straight on, even when its technically banned and blocking the cycle lane and should be redesigned to stop this; hopefully they have plans to do so.

 

[Sheffield_Tiger]

Your thinking about it too hard ST, as marinyork says there is a ramp on the other side of the junction which would enable the cyclist to enter the ped zone or loop round (turn left ! ) to go right.

Yes, I am thinking about this "too hard" but out of curiosity - I'm trying to work out the planning of this


No...there isn't a ramp at the other side

The ramp is to the LEFT of the junction and leads to a small "loop" which is in itself traffic-light controlled.

Entering the loop would send me back the way I came...however I would have to go left after the give way lines to enter that loop. To go straight on (towards the ped zone) would be to ride into a traffic light

If I went into the loop I would have to stop at another stop line, but then if I turned left on the green light at the loop, I would still go through a pedestrian crossing on the green man.

The purpose of the loop you mention is for cycles entering the junctuion from my left - as there is a "no right turn" that loop allows cycles to pull in and wait for a traffic light controlled crossing - back up the road that I am coming from.

In fact, doing that would still take you across a pedestrian crossing on the green man due to the light phasing

It's hard to explain so....

The GREEN path is my path

The RED path is the one yu suggest through "the loop"

The YELLOW path is the one that the loop is intended for


As for the "Intergreen" - it isn't long enough for me to verify 100% that traffic is definitely stopping (not "amber gambling" etc) and then set off and clear the junction before the ped crossing is on green for peds

The junction is totally screwed...that's why i'm trying to get my head around it

It doesn't cause me any major hassle......I'm just trying to work out the logistics of it....and of course imagining the furore should a car juncrion be so ambiguous

 

[Dan B]

I give way to pedestrians on the crossing, but with no pedestrians I ride over the crossing while it's on green. I DON'T pass any red lights in my path however.

Am I technically in the wrong?

My understanding is that the law about signal-controlled junctions is expressed entirely in terms of "thou shalt not cross the stop line when thy light is showing red" and as you're not doing that, you should be fine. After all, there are many junctions where for example vehicular traffic gets green lights in two directions at once and cars from one stream may want to turn right across the other: as there's no extra signal or phase to control the right turners, the normal procedure of "giving way" is in effect. Which is exactly what you're doing except for peds instead of vehicle users

 

[HLaB]

Yes, I am thinking about this "too hard" but out of curiosity - I'm trying to work out the planning of this


No...there isn't a ramp at the other side

The ramp is to the LEFT of the junction and leads to a small "loop" which is in itself traffic-light controlled.

Thats the ramp me and mariny are talking about ;-)

I must admit, in my half asleep state of mind last night, I never realised that the ramp was signal controlled; yes technically you would have to follow your red line, which is even more of a palaver! you would cross in the intergreen and parallel to the pedestrian stage, which is perfectly legal (there plenty of instances of walk with traffic/ parallel ped phases in the UK) and stop at the separate stop line for the loop which is a palaver and 99.99999% of the time folk would take your green route or dismount to enter the ped area.

As you say though there is no clear information at that junction what the cyclist is supposed to do and too many junctions seemed to be designed like that (particularly for cyclists) and not on the basis of what folk would actually do or want to do!

 

[marinyork]

You are thinking about it too hard. As I've already explained they've changed the junction since it was designed - that's partially why it doesn't make any sense - I'm talking from a historical point of view as well as how it is now. I used this junction very heavily in the past and am extremely familiar with it and it was different to what it is now. Originally you did have the option of using the loop if you wanted since the line through the junction was different to what it is now. As I've said, it's not a unique thing, compare it to the junction 50 yards down the road (just finished) where they redid it last year and then dug it up 6 months later, so we've had 3 versions of that one junction in a twelve month period and although they did consider cyclists (only cyclists can use it) they didn't go far enoug.

As I was going to say last night but was tired the principle of the junction you are talking about is similar to that of the cyclegate on bridge street. Here cyclists are similarly dumped into the path of traffic coming not from one but two directions and yet there is no control over it whatsoever. Similarly as it is past both junctions you are allowed to proceed but it's a case of blending in or giving way.

This junction is just a reflection that it has been tinkered with and the council until recently preferred minimalist signing of facilities. If you remember there didn't even used to be any signs on Barker's Pool to say you could cycle it, even though the TRO says you can and it's marked on maps. One of the other problems also appears to be that the planners seem to be under the impression that far more cyclists follow the strange back street signed cycle routes than the natural routes through town they do follow.

 

[Sheffield_Tiger]

Hmm...maybe I'm not thinking about this "too much". Well, Okay I am, but that's the point - no harm in handling the junction sensibly, giving way to pedestrians crossing and then proceeding

I bring this up again in light of the report also mentioned elsewhere

http://road.cc/content/news/31550-rac-suggests-cyclist-left-turn-red-traffic-light-trials

The below quote would suggest that such a junction could not exist in the UK that sends a cyclist through a pedestrian crossing on the green man stage...

"There are however concerns that there would be risks for both cyclists and pedestrians. Cyclists could be turning left into the path of traffic going through a green light, which would be particularly dangerous on high speed roads or where there are parked vehicles. And it is a fixed principle in the UK that no other traffic movements are allowed during a pedestrian stage."

If it's a fixed principle, then the junction being discussed can't exist. And if the junction exists, it can't be a fixed principle.

Of course, it's more likely that no-one really thought about it at all (rather than "too much") when planning/altering the junction but, well, there does exist a junction where traffic movements are allowed during a pedestrian stage. I wonder how many pedestrians have been terrorised, maimed and killed by cyclists at this junction????

 

[Dan B]

I wonder how many pedestrians have been terrorised, maimed and killed by cyclists at this junction????

It turned me into a newt

 

[Alembicbassman]

Just cycle through Barkers Pool instead

Sheffield has some classic road cock-ups. You need a degree in Geography to navigate its streets. God knows how satnav works there.

I don't go there anymore since the council gave me a ticket for parking on a deserted street with very poor parking signage (I thought the idea of traffic enforcement was to reduce congestion).

 

[perplexed]

ST, that's always been an odd junction. I'll have to have another look next time I'm in the city centre.

Just thinking on, I wonder what they'll do to that junction if the Sevenstone Development ever gets going, bearing in mind quite a few of the nearby large buildings/shops are due to be demolished. I wonder if they'll take the opportunity to improve the road layout?

 

[Sara_H]

I'm just wondering about the legality of this junction and the legalities of negotiating it

I want to turn right and certainly there exists a cycle lane for not turning left
There is no marked entry into the pedestrianised zone straight ahead for cycles
There are no "cyclists dismount" signs anywhere (yay!)

Turning right can be the only option otherwise the path would lead into a busy pedestrianised zone

If you need a closer look around, street view is here

Now, as you can see, the cycle lane shares a "stop" line at the lights - cyclists are required to stop at red as there is a pedestrian crossing - makes sense so far...

So..stop at red. Lights change, the green light is a left arrow but there is a sign "except cyclists" so off we pedal across the cycle lane over the reservation (reservation currently removed and replaced but layout stays same)

We reach a "give way" line - 2 parallel dashed lines, importantly this is NOT a stop line (it can't be)

Now, due to the phasing and the forced turnings, when my lights are green, so are those of the road that I meet at the give way line, and traffic is unrelenting at rush hour - until the lights for that traffic turn to red. The traffic going from left to right stops, and thus at the give way marking I can set off, no?

There are no other lights directed at me

HOWEVER.....when I set off and turn right, the fact that the road traffic is on a red light also means that the pedestrian crossing that I am to ride over is on the green man


Okay, so the way that I handle it is quite simple - when the way is clear I go. That means I give way to pedestrians on the crossing, but with no pedestrians I ride over the crossing while it's on green. I DON'T pass any red lights in my path however.

Am I technically in the wrong? Or is the junction quite odd?
I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, the road layout allowing for common sense (although most cyclists seem to carry on straight ahead and down the pedestrianised Moor)

Ha ha ...... I live in seffield and find cycling in the city centre very confusing and a little stressfull!!

If you work it out, let me know!

 

[pablo666]

I know another junction similar to that.
Its Here in Northampton
Your ok if you go straight across the junction from the conta-flow cycle lane.
That's the normal/expected route for bikes
But if you want to turn right down Cheyne Walk then the pedestrian crossing to the right is at green for the peds.
If you get delayed by the pedestrians, then you get in conflict with traffic coming the otherway wanting to turn right up York Road.

Luck .........

Intrestingly enough, that section there in Northampton isn't one-way (so contra-flow). Have a look at the signs on your next visit!. The one-way section signs start further back along the road. I can park my motor-cycle in the bays along there and when it's time to leave, I can leagally u-turn and ride up to the junction. The problem then is that the traffic light appears to be only for cycles as it has a green cycle light! It isn't actually signed up as a one way street despite its appearance and lack of lane for travelling (apparently) the wrong way. I'd love to do it in a car and get plod to stop me so as to point out the stupid layout.

Paul