Treat me like an fool... Please (average speeds)

[Rob81]

Hi everyone. Please excuse my ignorance. I hope you can help ask the impossible question.

I am very ebike curious - particularly the Vado SL and am very tempted to buy one. Ideally, I'd like to use it for my commute (once or twice a week). I currently do this in nice weather on my road or gravel bike. My commute is quite long 30-35 miles each way and this limits how often I feel like doing it. I hope an ebike will make it more tempting more or the time. On my current bikes, I average 17-19 mph depending on the conditions, my commitment and what I'm carrying. It's a reasonably gently rolling rural route. I'm trying to understand what impact the ebike would have on speed - if it is too much slower, it'll take too much time. I assume an ebike will be able to spend a lot of this time at or around the 15.5mph cutoff and will be significantly faster downhill. Can anybody tell me whether I am naive to hope to be able to average over the 15.5 mph limit on my gently rolling route? People's real world experiences of similar routes would be useful.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[bonzobanana]

Hi everyone. Please excuse my ignorance. I hope you can help ask the impossible question.

I am very ebike curious - particularly the Vado SL and am very tempted to buy one. Ideally, I'd like to use it for my commute (once or twice a week). I currently do this in nice weather on my road or gravel bike. My commute is quite long 30-35 miles each way and this limits how often I feel like doing it. I hope an ebike will make it more tempting more or the time. On my current bikes, I average 17-19 mph depending on the conditions, my commitment and what I'm carrying. It's a reasonably gently rolling rural route. I'm trying to understand what impact the ebike would have on speed - if it is too much slower, it'll take too much time. I assume an ebike will be able to spend a lot of this time at or around the 15.5mph cutoff and will be significantly faster downhill. Can anybody tell me whether I am naive to hope to be able to average over the 15.5 mph limit on my gently rolling route? People's real world experiences of similar routes would be useful.
Thanks,
Rob

I've not heard of ebikes being slower but I guess if the journey was relatively flat and you were a powerful cyclist who could ride a road bike fast that is possible. I think you have to factor in the 1x aspect of that ebike because of the mid-drive motor it limits your gearing and also the Specialized is a very complicated ebike using a motor with known reliability issues.

If you want a bike still fast when unassisted I would of thought a geared hub motor would be a better option. That shouldn't effect your drivetrain choice, increase reliability and be a lighter option. It's what most e-road bikes have I think.

Also because the hub motor works independently of the drivetrain you will find your drivetrain wears at a much reduced rate because it will give assistance on the hills lowering your efforts through the drivetrain typically so you can expect your drivetrain to last maybe 3x as long at best where as mid-drive typically wears a drivetrain compared to normal bikes about 3x as fast so yes there could be almost 10x the difference almost between drivetrain wear between a mid-drive and hub motor which if you are commuting 70 odd miles a day could be a significant saving in money especially if you ride a bike with a high end groupset which typically wear much faster anyway.

Also as another dig at the Specialized it is highly proprietary like the future shock in addition to the ebike components these are very expensive to maintain and replace. I realise you probably have a high disposable income and happy to make such a purchase but its important to factor in on-going costs and if the motor fails outside warranty it may not be economic to repair and that bike is purposely designed for that motor system. Such ebikes can be scrap quite quickly. It's not a situation where spending more gets you a better longer lasting product when it comes to ebikes often the reverse is true its more of a performance option with poor reliability and high ongoing costs its more like a McLaren sports car than a Toyota Corolla.

 

[fossyant]

30-35 miles each was is quite long as it's 4 hours riding on a road bike. If you are doing the one way in about 2 hours the e-bike probably won't be quicker, but you may be less tired. It may well be quicker in head winds. Is 17-19 mph the average for the full journey, or is it the speed you are doing on the 'flat' for a particular time ? If you are sometimes down to 10 mph, then an ebike would help.

I have done a commute like that in the past on a road bike, but it wasn't every day. It's a 'long day' - depends on commitments. If it's taking you say 2.5 hours then the e-bike might just help reduce that, but you'll be at the assist limit. That might be all you need to make the commute more manageable !

 

[newfhouse]

I'm trying to understand what impact the ebike would have on speed - if it is too much slower, it'll take too much time.

On my 11 mile each way commute I’m generally about 3 minutes slower on the Vado SL than on my non-powered road bikes. I think at least some of that difference is caused by the extra width of the handlebars slowing me when filtering through traffic queues.

Scaling that up - and all other factors being discounted - suggests maybe a ten minute difference in your journey time which I think is insignificant in the context of a two hour ride.

 

[richtea]

I average 17-19 mph depending on the conditions, my commitment and what I'm carrying. It's a reasonably gently rolling rural route. I'm trying to understand what impact the ebike would have on speed - if it is too much slower, it'll take too much time. I assume an ebike will be able to spend a lot of this time at or around the 15.5mph cutoff and will be significantly faster downhill. Can anybody tell me whether I am naive to hope to be able to average over the 15.5 mph limit on my gently rolling route? People's real world experiences of similar routes would be useful.

If you're already averaging more than 15.5mph then on average a legal ebike isn't going to help you.
Overall, you're guaranteed to spend more energy because the ebike will weigh more than your non-ebike, and you'll just be carrying extra weight.

In terms of individual parts of the route, you'll gain a little on the hills if you climb slower than 15.5mph, but then you'll lose more on the flats/accelerating where you've got to get the extra weight up to more than 15.5mph.

For the distance you're covering, you could consider a small electric motorbike:
https://www.supersoco.co.uk/

You'll get no exercise unfortunately, but at least it's relatively ecological and cheap to run.

 

[ianrauk]

For the distance you're covering, you could consider a small electric motorbike:
https://www.supersoco.co.uk/

Saw one of these (The Explore TC) on my mornings commute. Neat and nippy thing it was.

 

[numbnuts]

My commute is quite long 30-35 miles
I take my hat off to you Sir

 

[ericmark]

I used my normal bike, and wife's e-bike for a 6 - 7 mile run from old home to late mothers home. The trip to mothers same time both bikes, mainly down hill, and in both cases much of the run was free wheeling, so around 15 minutes.

However the return with my bike around 90 minutes, but wife's mid engine e-bike 45 minutes. This was a proper e-bike 250 watt, and true pedal assist.

Don't the Wirral cycle run, I could easy keep up with my wife with her on an e-bike and me on a 21 speed reasonably good bike, not super light, but still good. She would leave me on hills and I would catch up on the flat.

Using her bike Shotton to Chester dead flat along side the river I found I was limited to 16 MPH as at that point assistance stopped, and it was about my fitness limit. So the electric not helping really. But only 6 miles, with a longer run I would be riding slower, at 10 MPH it would clearly assist me.

Now I live in mid Wales, and more hills, so got a second hand e-bike, being built before throttles were stopped, I can actually stop pedalling and use just the motor, but the main difference is the way the assistance comes in, with this bike it seems to be speed related so each stage not as wife's bike a amount of assisting. So set at level 1 and once one hits around 5 MPH assistance stops, level 2 is around 10 MPH, and level 3 around 15 MPH, so to maintain 15 MPH needs level 3, but drop below 10 MPH and the motor is doing nearly all the work.

Also hill climbing very different, my wife's the motor goes through the gears, so still getting a lot of assistance at 4 MPH, but the bike I have the motor is in the hub, and as the speed drops below 6 MPH it starts to loose torque, and by 3 MPH it will over heat and cut out.

However with my bike the gears are standard de-rail type, and I could swap the front cog for a larger one to get more speed, but with wife's bike the front cog is belled to go around the motor, so could not have three speeds on front cog or easy get a replacement with a larger cog.

Both bikes as bought the gearing will not allow much over 15 MPH except free wheeling, but mine could be altered. I am an over weight 70 year old, so find the electric assistance good, but son finds a light bike far better, at the distance your doing you must be reasonable fit, so I would say likely an electric bike, well at least a legal e-bike, would not help you.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Really depends on how hilly your route is. If you can do 15.5 mph uphill on an ebike and maintain your previous speeds on the flat it might make a significant difference to your averages. Do you use Strava so you can see what kind of average you are managing uphill? That might give you a clue as to what is possible.

 

[newfhouse]

Really depends on how hilly your route is. If you can do 15.5 mph uphill on an ebike and maintain your previous speeds on the flat it might make a significant difference to your averages. Do you use Strava so you can see what kind of average you are managing uphill? That might give you a clue as to what is possible.

The Vado SL the OP mentions is a “light assist” e bike. My experience is that I can’t maintain cut-off speed for very long on anything over about 5%, no different in that respect to my non-assisted bikes. Maybe that says more about my normal fitness level than about the bikes

 

[bonzobanana]

I used my normal bike, and wife's e-bike for a 6 - 7 mile run from old home to late mothers home. The trip to mothers same time both bikes, mainly down hill, and in both cases much of the run was free wheeling, so around 15 minutes.

However the return with my bike around 90 minutes, but wife's mid engine e-bike 45 minutes. This was a proper e-bike 250 watt, and true pedal assist.

Don't the Wirral cycle run, I could easy keep up with my wife with her on an e-bike and me on a 21 speed reasonably good bike, not super light, but still good. She would leave me on hills and I would catch up on the flat.

Using her bike Shotton to Chester dead flat along side the river I found I was limited to 16 MPH as at that point assistance stopped, and it was about my fitness limit. So the electric not helping really. But only 6 miles, with a longer run I would be riding slower, at 10 MPH it would clearly assist me.

Now I live in mid Wales, and more hills, so got a second hand e-bike, being built before throttles were stopped, I can actually stop pedalling and use just the motor, but the main difference is the way the assistance comes in, with this bike it seems to be speed related so each stage not as wife's bike a amount of assisting. So set at level 1 and once one hits around 5 MPH assistance stops, level 2 is around 10 MPH, and level 3 around 15 MPH, so to maintain 15 MPH needs level 3, but drop below 10 MPH and the motor is doing nearly all the work.

Also hill climbing very different, my wife's the motor goes through the gears, so still getting a lot of assistance at 4 MPH, but the bike I have the motor is in the hub, and as the speed drops below 6 MPH it starts to loose torque, and by 3 MPH it will over heat and cut out.

However with my bike the gears are standard de-rail type, and I could swap the front cog for a larger one to get more speed, but with wife's bike the front cog is belled to go around the motor, so could not have three speeds on front cog or easy get a replacement with a larger cog.

Both bikes as bought the gearing will not allow much over 15 MPH except free wheeling, but mine could be altered. I am an over weight 70 year old, so find the electric assistance good, but son finds a light bike far better, at the distance your doing you must be reasonable fit, so I would say likely an electric bike, well at least a legal e-bike, would not help you.

So how does the throttle work with regard those power levels or does it only work if you don't peddle? I mean if you set it the most powerful 15mph mode and don't touch the throttle do you get any assistance? What sort of Nm does that hub motor have? Is it a geared hub or direct drive? Was it 2016 when throttle ebikes stopped being sold so I guess the ebike is getting on 6 years old or more so the battery could be end of life. May not be comparable to a modern hub motor ebike with a new battery. I mean some of the old throttle based ebikes even had gel lead acid type batteries.

Should be pointed out its perfectly legal to have a throttle on an ebike today as long as it only operates when you are peddling its the twist and go throttle ebikes that are illegal.

 

[rogerzilla]

E-bikes will be faster uphill, so that will raise the average considerably on a lumpy route. On a flat route, they may be no faster at all.

 

[ericmark]

The two e-bikes are very different as to how assistance is given, wife's mid engine works through gears and has three settings, eco, standard, and boost, and it gives help through out the speed range at those three different settings.

Mine has 1, 2, and 3 and the assistance cuts in at under 5, 10, or 15 MPH.

Throttle on mine works at all speeds, this is not permitted today, wife's walk assist works at under 4 MPH this is still permitted so you can have a button which will take bike to 4 MPH without peddling.

With mine it is really a software problem, not the motor, it could clearly have throttle that only works up to 4 MPH, and then pedal assist after that speed, but it does not, so to start on hills need the throttle, but once moving don't need to use throttle. But this needs me to manually refrain from using it, it does not auto switch off.