Landis 'fesses up?!

[kennykool]

Are we still talking about this?

Jeez Louise - I am officially bored of reading the same comments again and again on this site.

Has he been found guilty - NO
Has he ever failed a test - NO
Is there even a case getting built against him - NO

get on with your lives people

Landis is a mentalist - simple as that!

 

[John the Monkey]

Landis is a mentalist - simple as that!

...and Greg Lemond's just a crazy old guy, and Frankie... and so on.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Fly away monkey boy, you have no idea what my knowledge of pro bike racing is or what my good faith does or does not extend to

Both are demonstrable.

 

[yello]

Has he ever failed a test - NO

That's not quite true. He has retrospectively and also in competition, for which a doctor's note was produced.

But for the sake of argument, no he hasn't.

 

[just jim]

But for the sake of argument, no he hasn't.

Result!

 

[just jim]

All these pithy Lance Lines has really whetted my appetite for The Tour this year so, personally like, this thread has been a complete success.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Greg, if you go back, you'll find a lot of stuff discussing Armstrong. Here's one I picked out because it was one I was involved with and one where I've defended him. As an admirer of Armstrong it's been a slow and bitter realisation for me that this could be more than conjecture, rumour and bad blood.

Within that thread is a link to an extract of LA confidential written by Walsh. I did read the whole book after finding it on the internet, those links are now gone but there's a fair amount of discussion about it and his follow up book and the whole question of doping and blood tests and it's not hard to find, difficult to make sense of but not hard to find.

I'm not new to this. I've probably read every word published about the issue.

I'm almost certain he is or has been a doper. What gives me this certitude? Why, nothing more than the probability that they all are. Have I had direct first hand experience of dopers in pro cycling. Nope. In other sports? Yep. Did I denounce them? Nope. Did that mean I was a doper too? Nope. Have I seen others turn a blind eye to malfeasance in other spheres of human activity because of a misplaced/distorted code of honour? Yep.

Do I have any proof LA is dirty? Nope. Not a shred. Does anyone? Not so far. Has he been found guilty of anything by anyone? Nope. Not once to date. Have loads of others got caught over the same time period as he has been competing for the same offences? Yep, shedloads. Do a load of has-beens, and never-was's, like me, and narcissistic cycle forumites, also like me, constantly sound off that they know he is guilty. Yep. On what basis? Cos they read about it in the papers.

Do I believe in the fundamental principal of Anglo-Saxon justice that someone is innocent until PROVEN guilty. You bet your damned life I do.

You say he is dirty. Fine. PROVE IT.The debate will end and I will salute you for it.

 

[Harbornite]

Not sure if this has been posted before:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article7133884.ece

Apologies if it has, second page is interesting...lots of 'bitter people'

 

[kennykool]

Well said Greg!!!!!!


Although I don't think he has ever been naughty.

But yeah if someone shows me proof that he has then fair doos....I will still respect him the saw way I still respect Marco Pantani. Both are legends in my eyes

 

[montage]

Anybody who is better than me at cycling is a doper. fact.

 

[mangaman]

I'm not new to this. I've probably read every word published about the issue.

I'm almost certain he is or has been a doper. .

Wow - that really makes me wonder about your earlier posts - ad hominem attacks against Flying Monkey especially - for implying Lance is a doper.

Yet you're "almost certain" he is?

What's you're agenda? If you're "almost certain" Lance is doping, but launch personal attacks against people like Flying monkey and me, who are saying the same, what is your point?

The only thing I can think of is you see doping as a good thing and it's Lance's cleverness that you are applauding.

Or you are a just trolling?

 

[dellzeqq]

well Lance is second to none in dividing reasonable people...

I think, FM, that the list is balls. Much as I admire Louison Bobet he is so far from being in Lance's league that it's embarrassing. People criticise Lance for being a one race man, and it's a fair criticism, but if you asked Sean Kelly whether he would swap his four or five green jerseys plus seven wins of the Paris Nice for three yellow jersey's, let alone seven, my guess is that he'd have your hand off.

Lance is phenomenal. His durability is extraordinay - world champion at 21, and podium finish at 37. I think only Bartali compares, and it might be that, had the war not interrupted his career, he would have won many more TdFs - but he didn't, and he has two to Lance's seven.

 

[rich p]

Wow - that really makes me wonder about your earlier posts - ad hominem attacks against Flying Monkey especially - for implying Lance is a doper.

Yet you're "almost certain" he is?

What's you're agenda? If you're "almost certain" Lance is doping, but launch personal attacks against people like Flying monkey and me, who are saying the same, what is your point?

The only thing I can think of is you see doping as a good thing and it's Lance's cleverness that you are applauding.

Or you are a just trolling?

This a thread that started with a legitimate, reasoned debate about Landis' accusations and apparent eyewitness accounts of organized doping which Greg has turned into a slightly bitter and aggressive personalized attack at those of us who think there is a case to answer. Whether or not you agree with the view that the circumstantial evidence amounts to a hill of beans is neither here nor there in terms of the law. This forum is not a court of law where proof is required, it's a free and hopefully friendly discussion of the issues, where no concensus will be arrived at but everyone will have had their say. To be honest I'm disappointed with the tone and I will dip out of this one now.

 

[mangaman]

, but if you asked Sean Kelly whether he would swap his four or five green jerseys plus seven wins of the Paris Nice for three yellow jersey's, let alone seven, my guess is that he'd have your hand off.

So are we forgetting Kelly's

2 Milan San Remos
2 Paris Roubaix
2 Liege-Bostogne-Liege
3 Giro di Lombardia
1 Vuelta win ?

I think he would be pretty satisfied with one of the best all round cycling careers in history.

Other races than the tdf do exist, of course

If you look at the above - Milan San Remo is considered the sprinters' classic

Paris Roubaix is the "hard man's race"

L-B-L is a hilly claasic usually won by the stage racers, as is the Lombardia.

Altogether a remarkable career by any standards. I've not met him, but I get the feeling he's quite satisfied with the way his career went.

 

[Skip Madness]

Armstrong's seven victories are an incredible achievement, but - and I say this as someone who is a great admirer of Armstrong's athletic talent and fortitude if not his character - if I had the choice of whose palmarès I would take between Kelly's and Armstrong's, it'd be Kelly's every time.

No question mark required on the Vuelta win, either - the question mark is over whether he should really have had two.