When designing infrastructure for new cyclists, ignore the existing ones, says study

[gaz]

‘Cyclists dismount’ signs; narrow paths shared with pedestrians; bike tracks with priority given to motorists entering from side roads; short, pointless cycle lanes strewn with obstacles. This the sort of woeful cycle infrastructure put in place by local authorities who fail to consult with cyclists or who go ahead ignoring user advice.
Controversially, a study from green-leaning academics at three English universities urges policy makers to ignore the views of existing cyclists and pedestrians and only focus on non-cyclists and non-pedestrians. CTC said such a stance was “extremely damaging”.

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[growingvegetables]

Hmm, I know who I'd listen to ........................ and it just might not be a Professor of Social and Historical Geography, whose research "focuses on the social geography of Britain and continental Europe since the eighteenth century, especially aspects of migration, mobility, ethnicity, housing, health, crime and social change. Essentially, I am interested in how and why society has changed, and the impacts of these changes on people and places."

Unless he's talking sense, of course

 

[Red Light]

Actually if you read it there is a lot of good sense in it and there are some competent people behind it like David Horton (author of the worth reading Fear of Cycling). Although Sustrans seize on it to say that it supports their segregated view of the world, it actually says that the reasons people don't cycle (as has been found in other surveys) is because its seen as abnormal (hence the value of things like Boris Bikes) and it calls for traffic to be controlled to make it appear safer etc.

It does produce the interesting conundrum though of whether the authors cycle and therefore should be ignored or don't cycle and therefore don't know about the realities of cycling and should be ignored.

 

[John the Monkey]

Essentially that's what happens now. So our infrastructure is shoot, and once the new cyclist realises that, they either move to the road, or give up.

Ignore current cyclists BUT listen to Dutch traffic engineers would be better.

 

[snorri]

I find it difficult to read the whole article after disagreeing with a sentence in the first paragraph.

This is the sort of woeful cycle infrastructure designed by engineers who don’t cycle and put in place by local authorities who fail to consult with cyclists or who go ahead ignoring their advice.



Cyclists were consulted when the cycle infrastructure design guideline document was being drawn up, so why consult them again? Many of the problems arise when LAs choose to ignore the guidelines or take short cuts in standards in order to reduce costs.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I find it difficult to read the whole article after disagreeing with a sentence in the first paragraph.
This is the sort of woeful cycle infrastructure designed by engineers who don’t cycle and put in place by local authorities who fail to consult with cyclists or who go ahead ignoring their advice.
Cyclists were consulted when the cycle infrastructure design guideline document was being drawn up, so why consult them again? Many of the problems arise when LAs choose to ignore the guidelines or take short cuts in standards in order to reduce costs.

Why do you disagree with those? The first one is demonstrably correct - just look at the site that's referenced. The second one seems to reflect my experience at least - if my local authority actually adhered to the guidelines*, cycling to work would be a damned site easier and more pleasant.

(* The key point being: if you can't put in facilities that meet the guidelines, then don't put them in at all, but use other measures to improve safety.)

 

[snorri]

Mr HC, I think you and I are in agreement, it seems my wording was unclear, your 'Key point' sounds good to me.

 

[ohnovino]

Apparently, that report was from some "green leaning academics".

Well we've had years of green leaning academics producing reports on climate change and it doesn't seem to have fixed the problem. So how about a ban on consulting them in future, and all green policy being decided exclusively by people with zero experience in the subject?

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Well we've had years of green leaning academics producing reports on climate change and it doesn't seem to have fixed the problem. So how about a ban on consulting them in future, and all green policy being decided exclusively by people with zero experience in the subject?

Surely that's what we have already. People who have studied the subject producing reports and then politicians who haven't a clue making policies that completely ignore those reports.

 

[Richard Mann]

They got some funding to do some research into what "people who don't but might" say. They've done the research, the results are quite coherent, but they are still just "what those people say".

They don't demonstrate that "what those people say" works. In fact they don't even try to demonstrate it, let alone that it's better than other approaches. It's more a case of "we won some funding so our results must be relevant". I think they spent 3 years looking under the wrong stone, and all they found was a can of worms.

It's entirely true that the people that they studied (in Worcester, Leicester, Leeds and Lancaster) won't cycle unless something dramatic happens to main roads, and it's entirely true that some existing cyclists can't really help when it comes to achieving "something dramatic". But the professor was being a prat when he took that to mean all existing cyclists. He clearly has the standard problem of assuming that all cyclists are the same!

 

[dellzeqq]

They got some funding to do some research into what "people who don't but might" say. They've done the research, the results are quite coherent, but they are still just "what those people say".

They don't demonstrate that "what those people say" works. In fact they don't even try to demonstrate it, let alone that it's better than other approaches. It's more a case of "we won some funding so our results must be relevant". I think they spent 3 years looking under the wrong stone, and all they found was a can of worms.

It's entirely true that the people that they studied (in Worcester, Leicester, Leeds and Lancaster) won't cycle unless something dramatic happens to main roads, and it's entirely true that some existing cyclists can't really help when it comes to achieving "something dramatic". But the professor was being a prat when he took that to mean all existing cyclists. He clearly has the standard problem of assuming that all cyclists are the same!

I think that's about the size of it.

'In other studies ballroom dancing academics from Newcastle found that people who'd never been to university said that all university courses should be in Dance and Beer'.

I've just read the Summary of Key Findings and Recommendations. It's all cack. In fact, if this is the kind if cack that comes out of universities, then my Finding and Recommendation is that they should be closed down.

 

[Red Light]

For the price of that research you could have had a mile of Boris Blueway

http://gow.epsrc.ac.uk/ViewGrant.aspx?GrantRef=EP/G00045X/1

 

[dellzeqq]

For the price of that research you could have had a mile of Boris Blueway

http://gow.epsrc.ac....ef=EP/G00045X/1

what! Nine hundred and thirty six thousand pounds! I am absolutely staggered! That is beyond belief!

 

[jonesy]

They got some funding to do some research into what "people who don't but might" say. They've done the research, the results are quite coherent, but they are still just "what those people say".

They don't demonstrate that "what those people say" works. In fact they don't even try to demonstrate it, let alone that it's better than other approaches. It's more a case of "we won some funding so our results must be relevant". I think they spent 3 years looking under the wrong stone, and all they found was a can of worms.

It's entirely true that the people that they studied (in Worcester, Leicester, Leeds and Lancaster) won't cycle unless something dramatic happens to main roads, and it's entirely true that some existing cyclists can't really help when it comes to achieving "something dramatic". But the professor was being a prat when he took that to mean all existing cyclists. He clearly has the standard problem of assuming that all cyclists are the same!

Quite. Yet again no-one seems to have noticed all those cyclists riding round Oxford and Cambridge in ordinary clothes without segregation...

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I actually find that I agree with a lot of what is being said in the report, and that it fits with my own experience.

I cycle to work, yes, but I realise that I do it in a hostile environment, and mostly keep going because I'm stubborn and pig-headed and have a fear of getting back up to 15 stones in weight. There are many occasions when I do not enjoy it. I don't enjoy the frequent conflicts with ignorant gits in cars, when all I'm doing is putting into practice the recommendations that I have been taught. I don't enjoy the fact that I have to keep my wits about me at all times and am never able to relax and just enjoy the ride. I get angry that the council wastes my money on facilities that are dangerous and inadequate.

Many a time, I arrive home after the 12.5 mile ride from work, and almost immediately get into the car to do a quick local journey because it would be so damned inconvenient to do it on my bike: emptying panniers to make space, thinking about bicycle security, locks, etc., worrying about how I'm going to carry this, that and the other, and secure those things when I get to the destination, or having to carry everything when I get there, including the bl**dy panniers - and that's when there's only me going! If others are involved, it gets even worse!

The picture that is painted in the report really is quite familiar to me - and I'm one of the people that is pro-cycling.

Quite why it cost a million pounds to find all that out is a bit of a mystery, but I am also surprised to hear that a million pounds will only buy you one paltry mile of cycle superhighway! RL - where did you get that information?