3 Weeks with my Grasshopper

[kingrollo]

Sadly I can't say I'm overly impressed.

The main problems stems around the fact it is just too slow. It's slow and awkward up hills - I don't whether the gearing has been altered - but selecting 1 on the internal hub - seems to give me 8 pretty much useless gears. I can't really use them to get up hill as I don't generate enough torque to stay upright!
The only way I can get up hills is to grunt them in the gears offered by selecting hub 2 option - this is ok for short inclines - but nothing more than that.

Now I now I might not yet have bent legs - but even if descents I don't really get any speed of note.

The recline on the seat is ridiculous - I can't understand why you have such a severe recline - it seems to negate the low seat height - and the much touted adjustment is barely an inch !!!

The thing is also incredibly heavy ! - I mean I had steel bacchetta some years back which didn't seem as heavy as this.

On a positive minor off road tracks are very do able on the grasshopper - which I couldn't do on the bacchetta .

 

[fossyant]

Sorry !

 

[FrankCrank]

My preference is for a trike or LWB when it comes to recumbents.
Couldn't get happy with the SWB format, mainly due to the high BB relative to the seat height.
I do my 'bent riding in a flatlands area, so gear issues are, er, not an issue.
Also, I think a SWB is a better match for someone who is young, fit and flexible, none of which apply to me.
Anyways, good to experiment, I'm sure you'll find something that suits in the end

 

[PaulM]

Sorry to hear that. You are not the only one who has struggled with the seat recline on the Grasshopper. Suspension and lightweight conflict.

 

[Conrad_K]

The main problems stems around the fact it is just too slow. It's slow and awkward up hills - I don't whether the gearing has been altered - but selecting 1 on the internal hub - seems to give me 8 pretty much useless gears. I can't really use them to get up hill as I don't generate enough torque to stay upright!
The only way I can get up hills is to grunt them in the gears offered by selecting hub 2 option - this is ok for short inclines - but nothing more than that.

My trike came with a Peterson 2-speed chainwheel hub and a Shimano 8-speed rear hub. The lowest gear is so tall that on the modest local hills, I have to stop and rest every now and then. The highest gear, pedaling like a madman, I'm passed by elderly ladies on antique ten-speeds enjoying a leisurely outing.

After six months of riding the thing I went to the Dark Side and bought an electric motor and a larger front chainwheel. I need to finish that project someday...

The recumbent bike is still geared so tall I have to get off and push it over some steep sections on local bikepaths. High speed could use another gear, but it's not too bad.

Perhaps for a trained competition rider the closely-spaced, narrow-range gearing would be fine, but I'd much prefer the gears be spaced wider with more top and bottom available.

 

[kingrollo]

My trike came with a Peterson 2-speed chainwheel hub and a Shimano 8-speed rear hub. The lowest gear is so tall that on the modest local hills, I have to stop and rest every now and then. The highest gear, pedaling like a madman, I'm passed by elderly ladies on antique ten-speeds enjoying a leisurely outing.

After six months of riding the thing I went to the Dark Side and bought an electric motor and a larger front chainwheel. I need to finish that project someday...

The recumbent bike is still geared so tall I have to get off and push it over some steep sections on local bikepaths. High speed could use another gear, but it's not too bad.
a
Perhaps for a trained competition rider the closely-spaced, narrow-range gearing would be fine, but I'd much prefer the gears be spaced wider with more top and bottom available.

Yep exactly my problem with the grasshopper.

TBF and sensibly though - how fast is a bike with 2 20 inch wheels going to be ? - throw in a heavy suspended frame and you have a recipe for nothing other than a very slow bike.

 

[PaulM]

Yep exactly my problem with the grasshopper.

TBF and sensibly though - how fast is a bike with 2 20 inch wheels going to be ? - throw in a heavy suspended frame and you have a recipe for nothing other than a very slow bike.

I think Alex Moulton would disagree! What tyres are you running? Try a pair of 32-406 Contact Urbans with Schwalbe SV6a ultralight inner tubes.

 

[kingrollo]

I think Alex Moulton would disagree! What tyres are you running? Try a pair of 32-406 Contact Urbans with Schwalbe SV6a ultralight inner tubes.

Disagree with what ?

That a heavy bike with 20 inch wheels isn't going to be very fast ?

(Yes I dare say there is someone out there who can record superhuman times on a 20 inch wheel bike - but in general my point stands)

 

[PaulM]

Disagree with what ?

That a heavy bike with 20 inch wheels isn't going to be very fast ?

(Yes I dare say there is someone out there who can record superhuman times on a 20 inch wheel bike - but in general my point stands)

Alex Moulton was famously a fan of 20" wheels with suspension and high pressure tyres. I think tyres can make a big difference but if the riding position doesn't suit you then they won't.

EDIT. Actually, it was 17" wheels wasn't it? Even worse!

 

[a.twiddler]

With reference to tyres, without actually going to the extent of replacing them, I note that the online manual recommends running them at the max pressure, as the suspension (which I found to be very good) is supposed to take care of the bumps. I tended to run them at a bit less, but it might make some difference. I had Marathon Greenguards on mine, which supposedly had less rolling resistance than the Kojaks it came with. @yostumpy OTP has managed 20-21 mph average on Greenguards in a 30 minute race (which I can't claim while riding anything!). I can only assume that he's one of those for whom the seat recline works, though it's also a lot to do with the engine.

I think the effects of a relatively heavy bike are exaggerated regarding speed or lack of it. My Spirit probably weighs pretty much what the Grasshopper did, and while no rocketship, whatever meagre output I produce, seems to be to be getting used effectively. The Grasshopper, not so much, and I think that was due to the seat recline not enabling me to pedal as efficiently.

Yet the Brompton, itself something of a lorry, over engineered in steel, seemed to respond to every pedal stroke, high pressure skinny tyred small wheels and all, with its short distance from the BB to the rear wheel making it feel very direct. Other strange sensations too, teetering over the handlebars after being accustomed to lying back on a recumbent seat.

 

[kingrollo]

With reference to tyres, without actually going to the extent of replacing them, I note that the online manual recommends running them at the max pressure, as the suspension (which I found to be very good) is supposed to take care of the bumps. I tended to run them at a bit less, but it might make some difference. I had Marathon Greenguards on mine, which supposedly had less rolling resistance than the Kojaks it came with. @yostumpy OTP has managed 20-21 mph average on Greenguards in a 30 minute race (which I can't claim while riding anything!). I can only assume that he's one of those for whom the seat recline works, though it's also a lot to do with the engine.

I think the effects of a relatively heavy bike are exaggerated regarding speed or lack of it. My Spirit probably weighs pretty much what the Grasshopper did, and while no rocketship, whatever meagre output I produce, seems to be to be getting used effectively. The Grasshopper, not so much, and I think that was due to the seat recline not enabling me to pedal as efficiently.

Yet the Brompton, itself something of a lorry, over engineered in steel, seemed to respond to every pedal stroke, high pressure skinny tyred small wheels and all, with its short distance from the BB to the rear wheel making it feel very direct. Other strange sensations too, teetering over the handlebars after being accustomed to lying back on a recumbent seat.

Many years ago I did the Birmingham to Oxford bike ride. I was amazed to see one guy complete the 67 miles on a unicycle. So sure there are people who can make a grasshopper go fast - but probably not that many of us !

Occam's razor comes into play - it's got small wheels and it's heavy - for many (if not most) that's going to equal a slow bike.

In addition the GH is still a production model and coming from the robust HP brand I knew I had the product support should I need it.......or so I thought. My request for assistance in tightening the headset met with a "take it to your local bike shop" response .

They also won't ship spare parts to the UK - I understand the reasons why - but none the less I'm pretty much on my own with regards to support .

Cruzbike S40 looks more my bag !!!!

 

[a.twiddler]

Many years ago I did the Birmingham to Oxford bike ride. I was amazed to see one guy complete the 67 miles on a unicycle. So sure there are people who can make a grasshopper go fast - but probably not that many of us !

Occam's razor comes into play - it's got small wheels and it's heavy - for many (if not most) that's going to equal a slow bike.

In addition the GH is still a production model and coming from the robust HP brand I knew I had the product support should I need it.......or so I thought. My request for assistance in tightening the headset met with a "take it to your local bike shop" response .

They also won't ship spare parts to the UK - I understand the reasons why - but none the less I'm pretty much on my own with regards to support .

Cruzbike S40 looks more my bag !!!!

And yet... the Brompton has small wheels, is heavy, and yet is quite nippy. I've done a 65 miler on that, not entirely by intent, but I could still function at the end of it. The Spirit has an even smaller front wheel than the Brompton, heavy, maybe not lightning fast, but comfortable for 55 + mile days. Yet the Grasshopper, more a "proper" recumbent, seems to be a bit Marmite.

I had a try of a Cruzbike Quest, which was for sale locally. Another bike which on paper could be suitable for a non sporty rider. Nice low BB, not too much seat recline, aluminium frame, low seat, 559 wheels, rear suspension, etc. I'm up for trying out new things such as MBB FWD. However, for someone of average height the bb adjustment seemed to work, and there was plenty of adjustment available for shorter riders but the design had a serious flaw as the further back the bb moved, the higher the space needed for the knees went. So after getting on and making the necessary adjustments, my knees wouldn't pass the handlebars! No doubt different bars, different extensions, some degree of ingenuity, might have solved it but not at that time on the seller's drive. I'd been looking forward to seeing if I could learn to ride it enough to wobble round the seller's close. To add insult to injury, I then couldn't get off the blasted thing without assistance, and had the most excruciating cramp while trying. There is a version with 406 wheels, or I could have fitted some, but too much work needed to get a test ride done on spec.

Since I'd done an awful lot of recumbent miles before this, that set me back a bit. The moral seems to be that if you want to be able to get the best out of a range of recumbents, you'd better not be a shortarse.

It's likely that getting recumbent specific parts from Europe or the USA isn't going to be easy -or cheap- at the present time, though if agreements with the EU develop perhaps the European situation will improve. Unless you bought an ICE trike, anything recumbent throws you on your own resources unless someone like Kevin at D Tek has suitable parts. Fortunately, most consumable bits are fairly standard cycle parts.

Wheel size might be a factor in perceived performance but it obviously isn't the only one. Having said that, my latest LWB bike has 559 wheels, and that works better for me than the Grasshopper, as does the small wheeled Spirit, and the 700C/406 Linear.

 

[Tigerbiten]

The first 2 gear mods I did on my ICE sprint was to drop the first gear, 15" -> 12.5" -> 10", the 2nd and 3rd mod also raised the top gear 100" -> 130" -> 180". With an 18x gear range it fantastic, not fast uphill but it suits my riding style.
My thinking is a recumbent trike wants a 6x minimum gear range, a 10x range is even better.

So my thinking for ideal derailleur setup is a full road triple 30/40/53 matched up with a 12-36 9 speed on SA SC-RK3 3 speed hub built into a 20" wheel, 11"-110". The 3 speed hub add the equivalent of two more chainrings, 1x for low gears and 1x high gears. The 12-36 9 speed has very even steps between the sprockets, so makes shifting up easier, which is why I would pick it over a cassette starting at 11t.
You can go 22/36/48 MTB triple with a 11-28 for the same 11"-110" gear range. That gives you close spaced gears at the topend but the shift out of the granny 22t ring is slightly more tricky.
I use a Shlumpf HSD with twin chainrings and a Rohloff on the back to get my range.

It took me a few thousand mile before I wasn't crawling along at 50 rpm in the 15" first gear on any upslope.
I still do a lot of my climbing in around a 15" gear, but now I'm right in the middle of my ideal cadence zone of around 70-80 rpm. So not very fast but comfortable.
Plus knowing I have 3-4 more gears down if the slopes get steeper take a lot of the stain off my legs.