700c Bead sizes - are they truly standard?

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lazybloke

Considering a new username
Location
Leafy Surrey
You will be amazed at what a difference just a small change in diameter can make. I've proved this by reducing the wheel's diameter slightly by tightening the spokes and it makes a big difference in getting certain tyres on

I'm very tempted to give that a go, as my spokes feel very loose and the wheels are an utter pig when trying to ease the bead over the rim. My mountain bike is so easy I barely need tyre levers, but a puncture on my road bike leads to half an hour of swearing, and tyre levers pinging off at high speed tangents. I dread punctures on this bike, especially if I'm out on a cold night ride.


Can you offer any advice about how to tension the wheel without pulling it out of true? I'll be doing it with the wheel in-situ, using the forks/brakes as my "truing jig".


First things first, what's the best oil to free spokes? These wheels are from the 1990s so nothing has moved in years!
 
Location
Loch side.
I'm very tempted to give that a go, as my spokes feel very loose and the wheels are an utter pig when trying to ease the bead over the rim. My mountain bike is so easy I barely need tyre levers, but a puncture on my road bike leads to half an hour of swearing, and tyre levers pinging off at high speed tangents. I dread punctures on this bike, especially if I'm out on a cold night ride.


Can you offer any advice about how to tension the wheel without pulling it out of true? I'll be doing it with the wheel in-situ, using the forks/brakes as my "truing jig".


First things first, what's the best oil to free spokes? These wheels are from the 1990s so nothing has moved in years!

This isn't easy for novices. It may actually take you several days to get right. But...you sound brave.

Firstly, the wheel must be true to start off with. If it isn't, true it up by pulling wobbles out. I say pull and by that I mean that you NEVER loosen spokes to fix wobbles. This is because nipples cannot tighten themselves, they can only loosen themselves. So, if the wobble is to the left, tighten on the right. Find the epicentre of the wobble and tighten the spoke at the centre of that. Obviously this advice is only valid for a wheel with very little wobbles.

Secondly, once the wheel is straight, find out if all the nipples turn freely. Do this by unscrewing them a given amount - a half turn say, and then turning them back to where they belong. If none of them are frozen, you're good. Check for wobbles again. Oil all the spokes. Let a drop of 3-in-1 thickness oil loose at each nipple, when the nipple is at the bottom. Release the oil drop so that it runs down the spoke into the nipple. Drop another drop (half drop actually, one drop is too much) into the gap where the nipple enters the rim. Once you've done all the wheels, spin the wheel so that the centripetal force forces the oil into where it is needed.

Now. Take a deep breath and tackle the front wheel first. I assume it is a bike with rim brakes. This assumption leads to the fact that both sides of the wheel will have the same (approximate) spoke tension to keep it centered. Start at the wheel valve. Look at your nipple spanner and decide on an orientation to engage and always stick to this orientation. Let's say the spanner is one of those flat Spokeys. Decide that you will always engage so that the spanner is 90 degrees from the wheel's centre line. Obviously the nipple may not be oriented 90 degrees yet and the spanner will now veer of say 45 degrees. No worries, simply wind the spoke up (not down) the required 1/8 turn to the spanner 90 degrees. Now turn the nipple exactly 1/2 half turn. Don't just stop when you've reached the 1/2 point. Overshoot, turn back and then settle. This is important and will help you prevent spoke windup. Do it with one confident move. Wind it up 3/4 turn, turn back one half and wind 1/4 again. This gives you a half turn nipple advancement. Go right round the wheel until you reach the wheel valve again.

Now true the wheel again. You should need only minor tweaks, no spoke should need even 1/2 a turn.

Fit the tyre and see if it is better. If it isn't, go again. You should be able to get up to two more full turns in a wheel that wasn't really tensioned to start off with. If you have given the left and right exactly the same number of turns, your wheel should still be centered. Drink a beer.

Now that you've done the front wheel, you will be a bit more dexterous and confident. The back wheel is more difficult because the one side - the right hand side, has more tension than the other side.

What you need to do here is wind the right up more than the left. I suggest you first work on all the right hand spokes - give them 1 full turn (with the whole overshooting, winding back story) and then true the wheel. It will be off-centre at this stage but don't panic. Drink another beer. Now tackle the left and advance all the nipples by 1/2 turn only. The wheel won't be perfectly centered but it won't be bad. True it again (still not centered), try the tyre for fitment and decide if you need more tension or not. If you need more tension, first undo whatever turns you put into the left. Then advance the right by another 1/2 turn. Now go back and do the left one complete turn. This means you would have turned the right 1 1/2 turns and the left 1. Once the wheel is true, put the wheel in the bike and decide how much it has to move to the left or to the right. It should be rideable now even if the brakes are a little off-centre.

We'll decide on the next step once you've come this far. We need to get a feeling for how difficult the nipples are to turn and how badly the wheel is off centre. The way forward may require loosening one side or tightening the other. It just depends on how much tension there is in there at this stage.

Oil is your friend. Those nipples must move smoothly and not crack and ratchet on.

Edit: I should have mentioned that increased spoke tension will have almost zero effect on a deep section rim and most effect on a shallow, box section like Mavic MA2 or equivalent.
 
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Ian H

Ancient randonneur
I used an MA40 to build a wheel recently (It had been lying around for years). Of course, my favourite Conti tyres were a bugger to fit. Rebuilt with an Openpro and the tyres went on easily. Whoever mentioned Paselas is right – I had no trouble back when all my wheels were MA40 and I used Paselas.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Yacf have a thread which they've developed, using forumites comparison submissions. It looks at both tyres and rims.
This is the rims list:
622 Rims
Smallest Diameter to Largest
(= easiest to fit tyres to the rims at the top of the list )
Rigida Flyer
Ryde Racer
Mavic Ksyrium
Mavic Open Sport
Mavic Open Pro
Mavic MA2
DT Swiss RR1.1 /RR465
Bontrager Race X-Lite
Ambrosio Excellence
H+SON Archetype
Rigida Chrina
Nisi Mixer
Campagnolo Shamal
Fulcrum 5
Fulcrum 7
Campagnolo Proton
Campagnolo Vento
Exal XR2
 

andrew_s

Legendary Member
Location
Gloucester
Yacf have a thread which they've developed, using forumites comparison submissions
The trouble is that the variation in the size of both tyre and rim due to manufacturing tolerances means that thread is just a collection of anecdotes, and fairly meaningless when it comes to making decisions.
 

lazybloke

Considering a new username
Location
Leafy Surrey
You will be amazed at what a difference just a small change in diameter can make. I've proved this by reducing the wheel's diameter slightly by tightening the spokes and it makes a big difference in getting certain tyres on or not

I'm very tempted to give that a go

This isn't easy for novices. It may actually take you several days to get right. But...you sound brave.
<snip>

A thread resurrection to thank @Yellow Saddle for his advice.
I had a go at adjusting the spokes back in winter. The initial adjustment made me regret starting with the back wheel (which was now pringle-shaped), but truing it was surprisingly quick/easy.

But was it worth it? My Lithion2 tyres definitely squeeze back on much more easily now - I can even refit the tyre with my thumbs now - something I could never do before on these wheels. Whether this is due to my spoke tension adjustments or just the beads stretching, I don't know, but puncture repairs are now down to under 10 minutes again, compared to 30 minutes last summer.
 
Location
Loch side.
A thread resurrection to thank @Yellow Saddle for his advice.
I had a go at adjusting the spokes back in winter. The initial adjustment made me regret starting with the back wheel (which was now pringle-shaped), but truing it was surprisingly quick/easy.

But was it worth it? My Lithion2 tyres definitely squeeze back on much more easily now - I can even refit the tyre with my thumbs now - something I could never do before on these wheels. Whether this is due to my spoke tension adjustments or just the beads stretching, I don't know, but puncture repairs are now down to under 10 minutes again, compared to 30 minutes last summer.

Nice one and good result. BTW, a bead never stretches permanently. There is some spring in a steel bead but never enough to permanently stretch it. Absolutely nothing in a Kevlar bead either.
 
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