Accident waiting to happen....

[Arch]

This isn't really bike related, so stop reading now if that bothers you...

There's a crossing between home and Uni, which seems to be becoming more and more dangerous (for Yorkies - the crossing at Bootham Bar, from Petergate over to Exhibition Square). It's a offset sort of cross roads, and thanks to the tightness of the space (due to large chunks of ancient city wall and probably Medieval road layout) the traffic lights are set back a bit on each road, leaving a large 'no man's land' area. Traffic frequently backs up, and people ignore the rather faded, and too small, yellow box, meaning that there are often cars (and buses) across the pedestrian crossing studs, and tailed back, but past the visible red light (Am I making sense?). Twice in two days now, I've arrrived at the crossing on foot, to see the green man showing, but traffic moving over the crossing, because the tailback has moved off and they can't see that it's red for them. Luckily, I'm the sort of person who doesn't rely on the green man to keep me safe... Today, the lad in prime position (just about to go over the crossing in his car, but held by the tailback) was busy hanging out of his driver's side window looking at his mates two cars back, and I just knew that when he eventually realised the car in front was moving, he'd move on in a hurry without really paying attention. And I was right, and he missed the family crossing on the green man, by a couple of inches.

I think I may email the council, but I'm not sure what they can do - repainting and expanding the yellow box might help, but we all know, a lot of people don't understand or just ignore the whole yellow box thing anyway. I suppose a repeater light at the crossing might help (although I can't remember now, if there isn't one already...)

I suppose I'm just getting fed up with the level of driving I'm seeing. If it's not outright impatience, it's sloppy attention paying.

 

[HelenD123]

That happens at a junction near me where the crossing is after the set of lights at the far side of the junction. Cars go through the first set of lights on green but because there's a queue and very slow moving traffic it's often on red by the time they get to the crossing, and of course people don't wait to make sure there's room for them before they cross the junction. The council has put a sign up at the second set of lights telling people to stop if the light is red.

 

[JamesAC]

This isn't really bike related, so stop reading now if that bothers you...

There's a crossing between home and Uni, which seems to be becoming more and more dangerous (for Yorkies - the crossing at Bootham Bar, from Petergate over to Exhibition Square). It's a offset sort of cross roads, and thanks to the tightness of the space (due to large chunks of ancient city wall and probably Medieval road layout) the traffic lights are set back a bit on each road, leaving a large 'no man's land' area. Traffic frequently backs up, and people ignore the rather faded, and too small, yellow box, meaning that there are often cars (and buses) across the pedestrian crossing studs, and tailed back, but past the visible red light (Am I making sense?). Twice in two days now, I've arrrived at the crossing on foot, to see the green man showing, but traffic moving over the crossing, because the tailback has moved off and they can't see that it's red for them. Luckily, I'm the sort of person who doesn't rely on the green man to keep me safe... Today, the lad in prime position (just about to go over the crossing in his car, but held by the tailback) was busy hanging out of his driver's side window looking at his mates two cars back, and I just knew that when he eventually realised the car in front was moving, he'd move on in a hurry without really paying attention. And I was right, and he missed the family crossing on the green man, by a couple of inches.

I think I may email the council, but I'm not sure what they can do - repainting and expanding the yellow box might help, but we all know, a lot of people don't understand or just ignore the whole yellow box thing anyway. I suppose a repeater light at the crossing might help (although I can't remember now, if there isn't one already...)

I suppose I'm just getting fed up with the level of driving I'm seeing. If it's not outright impatience, it's sloppy attention paying.

This is an increasing problem. Because traffic density is so high, motorists moving through a green light don't get a clear run across the junction. Almost every time, cars are still on the junction when a) their light changes red, and B) the pedestrian light turns green. The poor motorist, who due to visual impairment cannot see anything more than 1 yard straight in front of him (or her) will move off as soon as the brake lights of the vehicle in front vanish .. irrespective of the fact that there are pedestrians crossing the road with the green man.
When I'm a pedestrian in such circumstances, I glare at the driver who's about to drive off, and, if necessary, point at the green man.

BTW, here in London, the mayor (BJ to his close friends, BoJo to everyone else) wants to decrease the length of time the green man is displayed, so as to speed up traffic flows. great!

 

[Molecule Man]

This is one of my pet hates, the morons who think that it's all right to jump the lights because they have put themselves in a position where they can't see them.

The worst offenders are the London bus drivers who park themselves all the way across a four way junction when there's no clear road ahead, so that when the lights change, no one can move anywhere, and two lots of pedestrians can't even see whether their lights are green or not.

For Londoners, I often see this at the Bloomsbury Way/New Oxford Street crossroads, also many drivers, especially taxi drivers, drive over the pedestrian crossing outside Charing Cross station with no regard for the lights.

 

[Arch]

When I'm a pedestrian in such circumstances, I glare at the driver who's about to drive off, and, if necessary, point at the green man.

Yeah, I glare, but half the time they are too dopey to understand.

Really annoying, athough not so dangerous, since you can't go anywhere, is when a bus or coach ends up over the crossing and you have to either wait it out to next time, or walk round them (and I never fancy walking in front of a bus like that). To be fair (and having driven larger vehicles, there but for the grace of god etc) the layout of the junction means it can be hard to see what's happening around the corner, so it's not surprising buses get caught out. They could just pull up before the crossing though to let peds through.

Now I think about it, I've thought of another junction nearby where something similar happens - once again, partially due to the fact that lights have to be placed back a bit, to allow long vehicles room to swing round, and the fact that tailbacks build up from the next set of lights. That and, once again, everyone ignoring the yellow box.

 

[summerdays]

There are 3 sets of lights within about 150m on the Gloucester Road in Bristol, and all 3 lights suffer this sort of problem (though the middle set don't have a pedestrian phase but to turn right off the Gl road they have to wait beyond the lights so can't see they have turned red). I have gone as far as complaining to the traffic management but having the lights so close together has created some of the congestion in the first place.

It was an interesting conversation where I learnt controlling lights was far more complicated than I had given them credit for.

 

[Night Train]

I suppose part of the problem is where the traffic is at the time the lights change to red. IIRC once a motor vehicle's front wheels have crossed the stop line on a green light it is technically negotiating a junction and so even if the traffic is slow or stopped and the lights then turn red the vehicle can continue to negotiate the junction, and in many cases should do so to avoid obstructing pedestrian crossings and cross traffic. I was taught this when I was learning to drive.

The difficulty comes when the vehicle is trying to continue across the junction but due, to the light sequence, pedestrians have started to cross their path on the far side of the junction. The vehicle should allow pedestrians to cross as they are on the road but equally the vehicle is then obstructing the cross flow of traffic until the next change of lights.

It would be easier if all busy junctions, or long junctions like the one Arch describes, had clear yellow box markings to prevent this from happening legally.

 

[Arch]

I suppose part of the problem is where the traffic is at the time the lights change to red. IIRC once a motor vehicle's front wheels have crossed the stop line on a green light it is technically negotiating a junction and so even if the traffic is slow or stopped and the lights then turn red the vehicle can continue to negotiate the junction, and in many cases should do so to avoid obstructing pedestrian crossings and cross traffic. I was taught this when I was learning to drive.

Yes, I think you're right, and I had forgotten that. It really does come down to better junction design (yellow boxes). But since no-one seems to understand about not obstructing the ped crossing for example, how well will they obey a yellow box? (Actually, yesterday a woman in a saab did hold back from sitting across the crossing, clearly one of the few who pays attention. I nearly knocked on her window to thank her, but reckoned I might scare the life out of her....)

 

[skrx]

I saw posters in London a while back telling people there was a £100 fine for stopping in a yellow box. I think there's enforcement cameras, maybe York could try that?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article673093.ece

 

[Arch]

"The cameras were supposed to reduce queues and journey times but Transport for London (TfL) has now admitted that traffic flow has fallen at junctions since the cameras were installed.

Many drivers wait an extra few seconds after the box has become empty or fail to follow other vehicles into the box when the exit is clear for the driver in front. "

Classic. Drivers are too dim to make a decent judgement, so it's the cameras' fault.

 

[hulver]

This junction? (Oooo. Google has finally got York on the Satelite view)

That's a nightmare junction. When you're driving that, you're so far back when the lights are red, it's difficult to see if the way ahead is clear.

It's a horrible junction, but I can't see what you could do to improve it much.

 

[mr_cellophane]

It's a horrible junction, but I can't see what you could do to improve it much.

Demolish this and widen the road

 

[hulver]

Demolish this and widen the road

No point. Traffic doesn't go up that road anyway. The other side of the road perhaps, if you wanted to demolish hundreds of years of history to make things easier for selfish idiots in their cars.

 

[Arch]

This junction? (Oooo. Google has finally got York on the Satelite view)

That's a nightmare junction. When you're driving that, you're so far back when the lights are red, it's difficult to see if the way ahead is clear.

It's a horrible junction, but I can't see what you could do to improve it much.

That's the one, and as you say, it's not the Bar that causes the problem, it's mainly the way the various approaches are offset. I'd be happy with a repeating light so drivers can actually see when the ped crossing will be green, and a better understanding of the rule about not being stopped across a crossing. There's room for a couple of cars to sit ok, between the yellow box and the crossing, provided they know not to move off as soon as traffic in front does.

 

[marinyork]

I agree Arch, although I used to go through that junction not that often. Some of the other bars have similar issues. Walmgate Bar is an accident waiting to happen because people don't follow the yellow box and guess what RLJ. They then whizz through the ped crossing lights on green. Actually it's not an accident waiting to happen, there were multiple accidents whilst I lived there.

E-mail Andy D'Agorne. I know he's not your councillor but he's interested in transport issues in York.