Advice re a "rogue trader" please
- Thread starter bobg
- Start date
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stowie
Legendary Member
Good luck with this. Having been someone who managed, by luck, to get good roofers etc. over the years, I got ripped off for around £10k on a building project at my house by builders who turned out to be nothing better than conmen. Apparently 25% of building work goes wrong - there are plenty of rotten apples in the building trade.
I am not legally qualified by any means, and my advice would go to CAB, but also go to a solicitor, at least for a consultation, if you think the money you lost is worth it (clearly solicitors are very expensive, but when I eventually went to see one, they were worth their weight).
Taking them to court is a tricky one. If they are complete conmen, you won't see any money, even if you have a CCJ - if they are legitimate business then you have a good chance of getting your money eventually as a CCJ against a business is generally bad for credit etc.
Typically if a workman doesn't perform the job to standard, then it will be expected that they will be given a chance to rectify, and this is often part of a written contract - if you have one. However, if you think they are conmen and have no faith in their work or their qualification to complete it to a satisfactory conclusion, you can consider that it is a "repudiatory breach" - something so fundamental that you cannot continue in the contract, and wish to terminate immediately, whilst allowing for suing for damages. You would probably need to be clear about what would constitute a breach like this, and this is where my solicitor was great. In my case, the firm had supplied false references, employed unqualified (and undocumented) labour, falsified VAT numbers on invoices, and clearly taken money without delivering the service. So I would dig deep around your builder and see what you can find - google, companies house online (if they are a ltd company), 192.com etc. are amazing tools at finding out information.
Clearly some of the work appears to be significantly below standard, but I would be careful at separating out work not done to standard, and work that is poor value for money.
I would advise to get proper legal counsel (from CAB or elsewhere) - and as I said, please don't take my post as gospel as I have no legal background, just stuff picked up during my issues. If you want me to give you pointers (phone numbers, web addresses) to places that may be able to give you information on the people you are employing, please feel free to PM me.
I am not legally qualified by any means, and my advice would go to CAB, but also go to a solicitor, at least for a consultation, if you think the money you lost is worth it (clearly solicitors are very expensive, but when I eventually went to see one, they were worth their weight).
Taking them to court is a tricky one. If they are complete conmen, you won't see any money, even if you have a CCJ - if they are legitimate business then you have a good chance of getting your money eventually as a CCJ against a business is generally bad for credit etc.
Typically if a workman doesn't perform the job to standard, then it will be expected that they will be given a chance to rectify, and this is often part of a written contract - if you have one. However, if you think they are conmen and have no faith in their work or their qualification to complete it to a satisfactory conclusion, you can consider that it is a "repudiatory breach" - something so fundamental that you cannot continue in the contract, and wish to terminate immediately, whilst allowing for suing for damages. You would probably need to be clear about what would constitute a breach like this, and this is where my solicitor was great. In my case, the firm had supplied false references, employed unqualified (and undocumented) labour, falsified VAT numbers on invoices, and clearly taken money without delivering the service. So I would dig deep around your builder and see what you can find - google, companies house online (if they are a ltd company), 192.com etc. are amazing tools at finding out information.
Clearly some of the work appears to be significantly below standard, but I would be careful at separating out work not done to standard, and work that is poor value for money.
I would advise to get proper legal counsel (from CAB or elsewhere) - and as I said, please don't take my post as gospel as I have no legal background, just stuff picked up during my issues. If you want me to give you pointers (phone numbers, web addresses) to places that may be able to give you information on the people you are employing, please feel free to PM me.
The general consensus is wrong. You have no obligation to give them a second chance - but when you try to recover the money you will have to satisfy the District Judge that their workmanship was so poor that you were reasonable in deciding that they were not capable of putting it right. If the DJ thinks you were unreasonable, you will lose even if he thinks their initial work was substandard. So whichever way you jump, there is a risk.
If it was a £15,000 job you would get a building consultant to do an independent report, then a reputable firm to put it right, then Shark Shark Barracuda and Shark to get your money back. For £1500 that simply isn't economic because on a Small Claim you don't get your costs back even if you win. And solicitors genuinely can't run even a small claim for less than say £750 because there is a lot of work involved, as you will find if you do it yourself.
DJs spend a lot of their time on building disputes. There are plenty of shoddy builders around, plenty of customers who think a £5000 job can be done for £3000 and there is hardly ever a written spec.
If you really don't trust the original builder to put it right, I would get a new builder to do so, with plenty of photos etc before work starts and a Defect List to the others for comment. Then do a Small Claim yourself if they won't pay most or all of the difference.
But be warned. The Courts find these disputes difficult to deal with, because they are all fact and no law, so they tend to compromise. You will find that it takes over your life for six months and at the end of it you may still be angry with the result. You are unlikely to get back all the £1500, so think carefully whether you are better just giving them two fingers and moving on.
[I own up to being a lawyer - until I retired last summer. Yipee!!]
thomas
the tank engine
- Location
- Woking/Norwich
I did a legal issues for business module last year, so covered small claims track - although I've never actually filled one in for real. From what I saw, if the claimant thought they would be able to get the money from the defendant then it wouldn't be that much work. Or at least, what work you do have is explained in English and I got the impression that using a solicitor for it was discouraged.
If the OP had bank details (presumably possible if you wrote a cheque?) then you could get an order against that account for any funds to be transferred to you (if successful). Otherwise, even if you were successful they may not pay and you might not get anywhere.
OP
OP
bobg
Über Member
- Location
- Crosby Merseyside
I'm so very grateful for all these good wishes and excellent advice. There's some dreadful tales!!
I've been mulling it over for most of the night and my major issue is the totally inadequate and overpriced installation of the eavesguard which I paid for by separate cheque. The rest of the work is tolerable and I'm prepared to accept it. It could have been done better imho but as has been suggsted, what's poor, adequate or good is subjective if it goes to CCJ. I rang Lloyds this morning only to discover that the cheque for the disputed work hadn't cleared ...... so I stopped it. I have written to the contractor (recorded delivery ) explaing my reasons and have asked for him to pay for the materials for it to be done properly. I stated that if this money is received within 7 days then the matter would be closed and I would pay for the remedial action by a "proper" contractor. If he failed to do so then I would pursue the matter further and would be seeking recovery of the remedial labour charges. I also explained that in view if the quality of his work and his blatent lies, I wasn't prepared to allow him to return and deal with te matter himself. In reality, Mrs BG said that " if she ever saw him again she would rip his balls off with her bare hands.....and that went for his dog too which crapped all over our garden....."
So its done for better or worse.... we'll see what happens pdq I imagine
I've been mulling it over for most of the night and my major issue is the totally inadequate and overpriced installation of the eavesguard which I paid for by separate cheque. The rest of the work is tolerable and I'm prepared to accept it. It could have been done better imho but as has been suggsted, what's poor, adequate or good is subjective if it goes to CCJ. I rang Lloyds this morning only to discover that the cheque for the disputed work hadn't cleared ...... so I stopped it. I have written to the contractor (recorded delivery ) explaing my reasons and have asked for him to pay for the materials for it to be done properly. I stated that if this money is received within 7 days then the matter would be closed and I would pay for the remedial action by a "proper" contractor. If he failed to do so then I would pursue the matter further and would be seeking recovery of the remedial labour charges. I also explained that in view if the quality of his work and his blatent lies, I wasn't prepared to allow him to return and deal with te matter himself. In reality, Mrs BG said that " if she ever saw him again she would rip his balls off with her bare hands.....and that went for his dog too which crapped all over our garden....."
So its done for better or worse.... we'll see what happens pdq I imagine
stowie
Legendary Member
Be aware that stopping a cheque is very difficult / impossible to defend in court (unless there is fraud involved or the goods / services weren't delivered at all). No matter how poor the workmanship, if the builder took you to court for the cheque money, it would almost certainly be awarded to him.
Having said that, this is probably the only way to really get his attention, and he may well not want to go to court if he is dodgy. You may get him just writing off the money and moving on.
I do sympathise with your situation. My case taught me never to let anyone start work on my house without a written contract (you should see some people run away when I talk about this), never pay money until the work is inspected, and always assume the worst case. I also believe that if someone is offering to "forget" the VAT etc. then they shouldn't be employed - someone willing to rip off the VAT man is likely to not think twice about ripping off you. Finally, I have, in the past, intimated that my line of work is around VAT / tax evasion or the law, once after some very dodgy builder told me that he was cheaper because he doesn't declare the VAT! He wouldn't leave (very pushy) so I said that he shouldn't really be telling me things like that in my line of work and he needed to go. He joked and said "are you the VAT man" and I said "close" at which point he went quite pale and couldn't leave fast enough...
Having said that, this is probably the only way to really get his attention, and he may well not want to go to court if he is dodgy. You may get him just writing off the money and moving on.
I do sympathise with your situation. My case taught me never to let anyone start work on my house without a written contract (you should see some people run away when I talk about this), never pay money until the work is inspected, and always assume the worst case. I also believe that if someone is offering to "forget" the VAT etc. then they shouldn't be employed - someone willing to rip off the VAT man is likely to not think twice about ripping off you. Finally, I have, in the past, intimated that my line of work is around VAT / tax evasion or the law, once after some very dodgy builder told me that he was cheaper because he doesn't declare the VAT! He wouldn't leave (very pushy) so I said that he shouldn't really be telling me things like that in my line of work and he needed to go. He joked and said "are you the VAT man" and I said "close" at which point he went quite pale and couldn't leave fast enough...
That made me laugh, usually the first question a potential client will ask is "What can you do about the VAT". The numero uno reason people end up with installations "gone wrong" is that they don't want to pay a fair price for a decent job. I pay VAT on my materials , what do people expect me do with the VAT?
stowie
Legendary Member
That made me laugh, usually the first question a potential client will ask is "What can you do about the VAT". The numero uno reason people end up with installations "gone wrong" is that they don't want to pay a fair price for a decent job. I pay VAT on my materials , what do people expect me do with the VAT?
It is so stupid. My experience has made me realise that recourse in civil courts is limited, and anyone who is willing to risk the wrath of the VAT man (who can seize assets with huge powers and ultimately put people in prison) will not think twice about little old me.
I must admit my experience was very unlucky, I would say my cowboy builders weren't the cheapest - they knew exactly how to pitch it. I would also say that subsequently they featured in "homes from hell" (not from my work) and we have been talking to many people ripped off by them. The fact is that the building trade is completely unregulated so rip-off artists flourish (as well as bad customers).
OP
OP
bobg
Über Member
- Location
- Crosby Merseyside
Thanks Stowie/Mark et al and many others. Cheque stopped so its a done now. He'll need to be some kind of heavy duty conman if he takes me to court for the job he's done ! Those last fow posts made me laugh out load.. as a retired Customs Officer who suffered 5 years of having to do VAT visits to pubs and farmers in the 80's .. When I was having my last house renovated I would keep the appropriate HMCE public notices handy when traders offered to forget VAT for cash payment or offer to waive it when they were quoting for zero rated new work! Mind you, the other side of the coin is that without fail my neighbours will ask traders to forget the VAT if they pay cash. They are amazed whe I wont do it....
It always amuses me that some people can rant on about 'benefit cheats' and shoplifters but don't even think it is dishonest for them to steal from HMRC i.e. from you and me.
[I didn't realise that the builder hadn't been paid in full. IME you have taken exactly the right steps.]
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