Aim........Fire..........Nearly.......

[PBancroft]

I'm not absolving them, though this situation is very simple to avoid. I'm by no means saying don't pay attention when crossing the road, but suggesting that it isn't that hard for traffic to use their eyes and ears to look out for pedestrians.

+1

I requote the portion of the Highway Code which I mentioned earlier:

The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.

 

[GrasB]

I'm not absolving them, though this situation is very simple to avoid. I'm by no means saying don't pay attention when crossing the road, but suggesting that it isn't that hard for traffic to use their eyes and ears to look out for pedestrians.

But there is also a responsibility on the ped to act in a predictable manner, after watching that video the guy that has to stop starts to run to try & make it across before fossy & the car behind him. That means he's just moved the goal posts & any judgment calls made up to that point have just been voided. I quite often find in villages that peds crossing the road will slowly amble across then register you're there so start to run even though there was plenty of space for you to pass in front of them before they got near needing that road space. This means your judgement of passing in front of them safely has just been voided.

Now one, seemingly fairly strong, argument is that you should there for stop when ever you see a ped looking or crossing the road but this in its self. The thing is this means that you can confuse people around you because there appears to be plenty of space & time, especially on a bike with a car following (remember the prime directive - A car must over take a cyclists with complete disregard for traffic conditions) this puts the ped in further danger. It's a complete minefield of possibilities.

 

[thomas]

+1

I requote the portion of the Highway Code which I mentioned earlier:

Yep...other rules to bare in mind potentially are:

GREEN means you may go on if the way is clear. Take special care if you intend to turn left or right and give way to pedestrians who are crossing

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu.../@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070561.pdf

Actually, that rule pretty much sums up this case. The rules for pedestrians section has very few "must nots" and it really is mainly just good guidance.

205

There is a risk of pedestrians, especially children, stepping unexpectedly into the road. You should drive with the safety of children in mind at a speed suitable for the conditions.


Though this rule ends up specifically mentioning children, I see no reason why it couldn't be applied to big children too Same with the next one..

207

Particularly vulnerable pedestrians. These include

• children and older pedestrians who may not be able to judge your speed and could step into the road in front of you. At 40 mph (64 km/h) your vehicle will probably kill any pedestrians it hits. At 20 mph (32 km/h) there is only a 1 in 20 chance of the pedestrian being killed. So kill your speed

Something that is pretty common on a bike if you're doing a good speed. Not just with kids and older people.

 

[thomas]

But there is also a responsibility on the ped to act in a predictable manner, after watching that video the guy that has to stop starts to run to try & make it across before fossy & the car behind him. That means he's just moved the goal posts & any judgment calls made up to that point have just been voided. I quite often find in villages that peds crossing the road will slowly amble across then register you're there so start to run even though there was plenty of space for you to pass in front of them before they got near needing that road space. This means your judgement of passing in front of them safely has just been voided.

Now one, seemingly fairly strong, argument is that you should there for stop when ever you see a ped looking or crossing the road but this in its self. The thing is this means that you can confuse people around you because there appears to be plenty of space & time, especially on a bike with a car following (remember the prime directive - A car must over take a cyclists with complete disregard for traffic conditions) this puts the ped in further danger. It's a complete minefield of possibilities.

Good points, I think that a lot of it boils down to people believing that they need to get out of the way of motorised traffic as quickly as possible, as slowing a car down is some sort of grave sin.

Certainly, the guy running didn't help. That's why when crossing the road I tend to keep going at a general amble and won't rush out of the way.

My advice though, would potentially be, you're aware that pedestrians are unpredictable. If you see them crossing ease up a bit, if they're like me then go in front, if they're not then you can go behind and ultimately won't loose your momentum and speed.

I'd rather go behind someone crossing the road, rather than trying to sneak around in front, as hopefully most pedestrians don't start going backwards doing the moon walk.

 

[Browser]

OK, loks like I need to re-read the Highway Code. Trouble is, most people in the UK, and I'm lumping motorists, motorcyclists, peds, cyclists, scooterists, skaters, basically anyone using the roads, together here haven't read or do not have an in-depth or even working knowledge of the HC and, if they do, don't have enough of an appreciation of safe road use (and that probably includes me).
So if Fossy had slowed, what's to say that more peopel wouldn't have started to cross when they saw him slow and blocked his path. "He shouldn't have started off 'til his exit was clear!" comes the reply. OK, if he'd stopped behind the line at the lights, hed've at best been beeped/abused by a motorist behind, at worst knocked off.
I've been running through in my mind what Id've done in this situation, and the answer is, unfortunately for me, it would have depended upon my mood. If I'd been feeling tolerant I might have slowed down. If I was in my normal dort of mood I'dve been tempted to do what Fossy did, albeit with a bell ring or a blast of the Airzound.
I reiterate though that I do not believe in any systwm whereby motorists are automatically at fault when a pedestrian steps out on them. I've had more than one situation, both in the car and on the bike, where I've had peds step into the road without even so much as a glance at what was coming. I've even had a kid ride his bike out of a blind footpath which opened straight out onto the estate road I was driving along (at 20mph in second gear), in broad daylight into my front wing, and I still got breathalised.

 

[thomas]

OK, loks like I need to re-read the Highway Code. Trouble is, most people in the UK, and I'm lumping motorists, motorcyclists, peds, cyclists, scooterists, skaters, basically anyone using the roads, together here haven't read or do not have an in-depth or even working knowledge of the HC and, if they do, don't have enough of an appreciation of safe road use (and that probably includes me).

It includes me too tbh. I'd say I have a better than most knowledge of the highway code, but I didn't know that my argument was kind of backed up with that green light bit. Certainly, there needs to be a bit of common sense and interpretation when on the roads. I wouldn't for instance flash someone to warn them a lot of the times, even if it is a warning in the highway code.

As for the system where motorists are at fault, I'm not saying everywhere, but certainly there are areas where pedestrianisation, or a shared use could be a good thing. Get drivers out of their element and make it easier for pedestrians to get across the road and for all road users to mingle together Does anyone have any articles or news clippings on this where it is implemented?

You didn't answer about my Vietnam video

Also, could I have your opinion on how I crossed the road here:


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9VJuqKkMRU


Safe or unsafe? Any other points?

 

[Arch]

Is it Germany where they have zones where pedestrians can basically do whatever they want without worrying? For instance, if you walked out in front of a car (1 foot away) and got hit, it would be the driver's fault. I think introducing something like that into certain areas would be a good thing for pedestrians. I'm by no means suggesting jumping out in front of cars, but certainly in slower speed zones and areas of high foot traffic, it'd be nice for pedestrians to have a priority and have drivers take a lot more care. My initial description probably hasn't sold it, so hopefully someone can come along and actually describe it properly

No, you haven't got that quite right, you've fallen for the Daily Mail screamer version, and I think, mixed up two ideas.

As I understand it, in many European countries the presumption of liability is with the driver, unless it can be proved that the other party behaved dangerously or carelessly. Stepping out a foot in front of a car, or cycling the wrong way down the street or pulling out without looking would shift liability to the non-driver. But the law starts from a position of assuming that the more vulnerable person is not at fault. Trouble is, whenever it's suggested here, the press make it out like you'll be slammed in jail if someone throws themselves under your car with no lights having run a red...

Then there are the zones with no or little roadmarking and signage, and no kerbed distinction between roadway and pavement - the idea being that when you have to think about where the road ends and the pavement starts, or negociate in terms of looking and moving when crossing a junction, then you drive more slowly, and pay more attention to the things that matter - other human beings - rather than letting sign and lines and lights tell you what you do. It's a way of humanising roads. By and large, I think, in these areas, peeds don't just wander about in the road way, but they and drivers have to think more about where they are.

Here in York we have plenty of streets that are pedestrian-only during the day, with only disabled vehicle access in the daytime. Towards the end of the accessible period there are often still delivery vans leaving, while the peds wander about in the assumption that the zone is already in operation. And those vans (and any disabled vehicles during the day), edge down carefully and slowly, and peds get out of the way, gradually, and people don't tend to get killed...

 

[thomas]

No, you haven't got that quite right, you've fallen for the Daily Mail screamer version, and I think, mixed up two ideas.

Oh, I wasn't on about that. I know what you mean, about all the papers saying that the motorist will always been at fault, blah blah blah.

I'm talking about areas of pedestrian priority. I swear I read it somewhere on here, but no idea where.

 

[Browser]

You didn't answer about my Vietnam video

I assume that was a typical day in that part of Vietnam and that was a typical method of crossing that road?
If so, yer a better man than I gunga-din!

 

[fossyant]

Anyway....not quite managed to chalk up any 'hits' on the top tube yet....unlike Mark Cavendish on his Scott......

 

[thomas]

I assume that was a typical day in that part of Vietnam and that was a typical method of crossing that road?
If so, yer a better man than I gunga-din!

haha yeah. Completely different to here 'ey....even though I do try to cross like that at times, with limited success.

Certainly, I quite like the Vietnam road crossing system, of just keep walking slowly and everyone will some how miss you

 

[g00se]

I don't find the pedestrianisation of Norwich too bad compared to others. Though I agree the unofficial 'shared use-style' layout of St Stephens Street and Rampant Horse Street (M&S) bothersome - as one set of road users/pedestrians assume they have right over the other - without any true sharing.

I know there were plans on making Prince of Wales RD a car free zone at night, as it's the main clubbing area so there are obviously a lot of drunks (aka me ) running into the road . Some sort of shared space along 3 roads in the city could work well I think.

Now, on my morning commute towards the station, Prince of Wales Road is great fun. If you make sure you're held up at the red at the top by the old Anglia TV building, then the relatively short run towards the station has about 6 ped crossings. But they're all sequences to allow traffic through at about 20-25 miles and hour.

You can get a nice run going on the slight decline, hitting the lights one after the other as they turn. The cars hold back because the light ahead is red so no crappy overtakes. And the road always seems to be quite clear of peds at that time in the morning so no-one chancing their arms crossing away from the lights.