An observation on north Manchester bike commuters

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shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
I've driven Mrs SB into work this morning and pleasantly surprised to see quite a few people riding into work.

All told no surprises, 99+% of us driving and riding are doing ok just getting from A to B in one piece, a few fall short and into nobberdom irrespective of having an engine or not.

The thing that bothers me though is the low expectations cyclists have on being passed by cars. I'm not a shrinking violet when riding, I hold primary when `i need to & a close pass to me is when I can flick an elbow out and touch the vehicle.
When driving I make sure I wait for a clear stretch and I pass textbook style, if I back up other cars = tough. It was clear that by waiting 10-15 feet back in non revvy gears and rolling along at the bike pace until it was safe to go past Highway Code stylee. I was making cyclists rather nervous or confused.
I was getting far more backward glances and long hard stares even if just 20-30 seconds sat there with traffic streaming the other way. A couple of riders even deviated from a decent if not quite primary line right into the gutter, one when clearly coming up to a line of parked cars, all clearly unsure what I was doing waiting and whether consciously or not seemed to be willing me past them.

My effort to be a good and considerate driver seemed to make them more nervous than had I been the standard must-get-past that we all encounter from a few feet to a few inches away but none with any great patience to wait.

On the upside, the cars that I'd got behind me in waiting also took the same proper wide across the central line as me past the bikes.

A driver trying to do it absolutely by the book though seems such a rarity that cyclists don't know quite what they're up to or how to respond.
I wonder if I might be better for other cyclists self confidence by still being safe and giving several feet of room but not quite so prissy about passing? It that disappoints me that I should have to consider if it is better to do it wrong to not distract the riders or make them feel obliged to get out of my way.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
It's very difficult to judge a driver's intentions particularly on a dark morning when all you can really see behind is headlights.

I have a patch of road that is two lanes in my direction but with parked cars all along it so it's effectively parked car, 3 feet of road, empty lane. I always stick in that 3 feet of road if possible and maintain as straight a line as I can. My whole body language is trying to shout "You have a whole lane please pass me" but some drivers don't do so. Maybe they want to give me more room, maybe they have been abused by cyclists for a close pass before. I don't know.

I once had a driver behind me as I approached the top of Shooters Hill. This is a notorious spot for MGIF and I always take a strong primary. However this guy hung well back from me and it took me a while to figure out that he planned to stay there. It was one of the best rides down the hill I've had for ages: 45mph and about 100 yards of empty road! :smile:
 

Bazzer

Setting the controls for the heart of the sun.
I think some of the low expectations to which you refer are born out of experience.

As someone who until my leg break earlier this year, regularly commuted in from West of Manchester, I found that when in secondary holding a consistent distance from the kerb seemed to be of benefit to me and other road users. Sure there were knobbers, but generally most were receptive to the fact that I had a space and was sticking with it and if an obstacle was coming up, my positioning was reflective of that.

I suppose some of it comes down to confidence, both for cyclists and motorists. As a motorist you might not agree with what a cyclist's positioning, the speed they are travelling, or their road manners, but if they are consistent in what they are doing, at least you know where your opportunity to pass is likely to arise. I would guess that most motorists coming up behind a car with "L" plates, take more care because of the unknown elements; earlier braking, stalling etc., than they do with cars not displaying "L" plates.
 
OP
OP
shouldbeinbed

shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
I think some of the low expectations to which you refer are born out of experience.

yes that my point really, their experience disappointingly points them more to fear of what is behind them & a desire to get out of the way even to their own inconvenience, all while i had matched pace, low revs, not weaving in/out of their peripheral vision and a good distance behind them.
They may have been new riders and not used to heavier volumes of traffic but from the positions they instinctively took, the consistency of their line and riding style etc I reckon they had done it before

I found that when in secondary holding a consistent distance from the kerb seemed to be of benefit to me and other road users. Sure there were knobbers, but generally most were receptive to the fact that I had a space and was sticking with it and if an obstacle was coming up, my positioning was reflective of that. +lots

I suppose some of it comes down to confidence, both for cyclists and motorists. As a motorist you might not agree with what a cyclist's positioning, the speed they are travelling, or their road manners, but if they are consistent in what they are doing, at least you know where your opportunity to pass is likely to arise.

this is me, on a bike I am very adept at managing my environment and using plenty of visual clues, nice hand signals, road positioning etc to show (as much as anything reassure) drivers I do know what I'm doing, I know that they're there, we'll all do it sensibly and everyone goes on their merry way perfectly happy. invariably it works, but like you say, the odd idiot will always find you but they seem to be congenitally idiotic not just making my ride less serene.

In a car I drive as I would wish people to drive around me but I do find It is easier on a bike to communicate assertively with a driver than vice versa. unavoidable engine noise and cabin soundproofing and having to wait for a head glance to pass a thumbs up or do your own thing wave message across makes it tough to reassure the biker you're not a threat to them.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
A couple of riders even deviated from a decent if not quite primary line right into the gutter,

Norfolk County Council still teaches the bad old two-feet-from-kerb position (NCC Off-Road (Level 1) and On-Road (Level 2) Cycling Courses Revision 2 2010 INSTRUCTOR HANDBOOK page 31). I expect others do too. Even when riders have primary/secondary explained to them, many still feel this is somehow naughty and will revert to two feet out when they feel in conflict with motorists... some of whom will have received the same substandard cycling instruction too, so routinely abuse people for cycling in primary.

I would guess that most motorists coming up behind a car with "L" plates, take more care because of the unknown elements; earlier braking, stalling etc., than they do with cars not displaying "L" plates.
The local driving test centre is five streets away from me, so I see plenty of L plate cars - some under test and more getting familiar with the area where they'll be tested - and sadly, this is far from universal. Probably most (and the overwhelming majority of HGV drivers) but a significant minority seem to treat Learners are prey for sport.
 

RedRider

Pulling through
Most people believe roads are for cars so will defer and in terms of safety, primary position might seem counter intuitive like running towards a randy bull.*
We can do our bit by letting new cyclists know about cycle training (free in London via Cycle Confident who I think use "Cyclecraft" as their guide, not sure about Manchester sorry,)or even by the example of our own textbook style.:crazy:

*
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
We can do our bit by letting new cyclists know about cycle training (free in London via Cycle Confident who I think use "Cyclecraft" as their guide, not sure about Manchester sorry,) ...
Do you know what Cycle Confident mean by "Understand where to ride on the roads you are using" though? Their site says they follow the National Standards for Cycle Training Syllabus, but Norfolk County Council claim that too while teaching people to ride two feet out.
 

RedRider

Pulling through
Do you know what Cycle Confident mean by "Understand where to ride on the roads you are using" though? Their site says they follow the National Standards for Cycle Training Syllabus, but Norfolk County Council claim that too while teaching people to ride two feet out.
I don't have personal experience but I've heard good things about them and seen the instructors instructing on the roads and they seem to be teaching good habits. The 'instructor training' section of their site says trainers get a copy of Frankln's Cyclecraft so I take this to mean 'primary', 'secondary' etc. I'm sure there's other cyclechatters who know more about their work than myself though. I take your point that directing people towards rubbish training would be counterproductive.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Their site says they follow the National Standards for Cycle Training Syllabus, but Norfolk County Council claim that too while teaching people to ride two feet out.
I looked into this again just now and I think I've got to the bottom of it. The National Standards for Cycle Training clearly says about primary and secondary and training is usually reviewed against those standards by Steer Davies Gleave, but Norfolk County Council's training was only reviewed by Mott MacDonald :rolleyes:

Anyway, as mentioned, I doubt NCC are the only trainers still teaching people to ride in the gutters!
 

screenman

Squire
I would be worried with a car 10 foot behind me, would you be that close to a car prior to overtaking. Or am I reading the post wrong?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I would be worried with a car 10 foot behind me, would you be that close to a car prior to overtaking. Or am I reading the post wrong?
Good point! 40 feet at 20mph, please!
the-highway-code-stopping-distances.jpg
 
I commute (sounds good - trundle on my hybrid the reality) across North Manchester (Wigan-Bury) & I think that with so few other cyclists on the road (compared to other parts of the country) there's a general lack of respect from car drivers (not helped by unlit teens weaving their way through footpaths & red lights). Most are great but too many have more confidence in my cycling abilities than I do (or wouldn't squeeze by so close). Breaking point for me was some dork at speed 6 inches from my elbow within a mile of me being blown 2 feet into the road by a massive (and unexpected) gust of wind a few weeks ago.

So I've ditched the helmet to look (even) less professional and am delighted by the results - I seem to be given significantly more room and drivers often actually wait until I'm past narrow bits (obviously not Audi drivers, they're far too important). I also mounted what was my low powered red helmet flasher on the right hand side of my panniers - trying to point out you don't measure passing distance from the main, centre mounted, light. I think van men have sort of adopted me as one of their own! Mind you now I look even more pleb like than before I get fewer hearty "Good mornings" from the few 'proper' cyclists as they whizz by
 
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