Another moan to TFL: Motorbikes in ASLs / bike lanes

[skwerl]

Replied:


Thanks for your reply, but I don't think this is correct:

"Motorcyclists are allowed to weave in and out of the mandatory cycle lanes in the same manner as bicycles and taxis may use most bus lanes. Specific provision is included in the Highway Code. "

As I wrote in my original mail, I have no problem with the trial of motorbikes in bus lanes (and I didn't mention taxis at all), but according to my copy of the highway code, Rule 140 forbids any motor vehicle to enter a cycle lane indicated with a solid white line (AKA a mandatory cycle lane). As for ASLs, Rule 178 explicitly states that motorcyclists must not enter if the light is red and should allow cyclists time and space to move off. Neither of these rules seem to be enforced and I have had a number of near misses because of motorcylists and scooter riders flouting them.

My copy of the Highway Code is from 2007, has this all changed now?

I'm assuming the reply meant the non-mandatory cycle lanes but then any motor vehicle is allowed into those so the reply is pants both ways.

 

[very-near]

Just to throw this into the mix, You have to ask why they want to use the ASLs before slagging them off.

A motorcycle filtering between lines of traffic is just as vulnerable when the traffic starts to move as a cycle is.

Irrespective of an ASL being there or not, most motorcycles will try and get to the front of the queue primarily for the fear of getting squished between the cars who tend to generally ignore them as much as they do cyclists.

 

[hackbike 666]

In a way though I can understand why they use the cycle lane on Lower/Upper Thames Street.It's a pretty crappy road at the best of times and now they are digging the road up all over the place.

 

[very-near]

And then you answer it very quickly and easily by saying that for the majority it's all about speed.

There's very little added danger for a motorbike to take its correct position in slow-moving or stationary traffic.

Like bikes, they're only really at risk of being squished if they're between lanes. Good bikers/riders should be in a position where they find themselves trapped there anyway. It's only those poor ones who then need to ride illegally to get themselves out of the pickle that they could have easily avoided.

What do you regard as the 'correct position', one which doesn't involve filtering ?

 

[Tharg2007]

i would have thought its correct position would be in-between the cars as if they were a car themselves. Filtering between cars would be ok so long as you can see a safe route and one that will keep you within the law, so filtering to get to a space further down so long as you dont cross the white line while the light is on red or go in the mandatory cycle lane or cross into the ASL while the light is on red.

The rules are quite clear on where you can and cant go, when people start to ignore them we enter into a world of shoot, which is precisely where we are now!

 

[very-near]

i would have thought its correct position would be in-between the cars as if they were a car themselves. Filtering between cars would be ok so long as you can see a safe route and one that will keep you within the law, so filtering to get to a space further down so long as you dont cross the white line while the light is on red or go in the mandatory cycle lane or cross into the ASL while the light is on red.

The rules are quite clear on where you can and cant go, when people start to ignore them we enter into a world of shoot, which is precisely where we are now!

Is this how you filter on your cycle or do you just ride up the line of traffic towards the head of the queue until you either reach it or get stuck before a narrowing you can't negotiate cleanly - like every other cyclist on the road ?

The whole point of commuting with a cycle in town is to beat the traffic. If you don't filter, you might as well be sat in a car.

 

[Tharg2007]

Is this how you filter on your cycle or do you just ride up the line of traffic towards the head of the queue until you either reach it or get stuck before a narrowing you can't negotiate cleanly - like every other cyclist on the road ?

The whole point of commuting with a cycle in town is to beat the traffic. If you don't filter, you might as well be sat in a car.

i am happy to wait in traffic and will only filter to get to a space I can see available, i don't like getting stuck. allot of my route has cycle lanes and ASL so I can filter and get to ASL, the parts where there is none of these and traffic gets heavy and slow I take a car space on the road and keep up when traffic moves off. I also stop at red lights and don't amber gamble. I find that doing all the above I still pass all the other cyclists that filter when they shouldn't, I still get to work faster than I would have in my car, and I get a better workout due to stopping and starting.
Theres very little time to be saved by ignoring the rules and taking chances.

 

[very-near]

i am happy to wait in traffic and will only filter to get to a space I can see available, i don't like getting stuck. allot of my route has cycle lanes and ASL so I can filter and get to ASL, the parts where there is none of these and traffic gets heavy and slow I take a car space on the road and keep up when traffic moves off. I also stop at red lights and don't amber gamble. I find that doing all the above I still pass all the other cyclists that filter when they shouldn't, I still get to work faster than I would have in my car, and I get a better workout due to stopping and starting.
Theres very little time to be saved by ignoring the rules and taking chances.

Look at it a different way. You are creating a space between two cars by filtering and stopping in between them. The driver you park in front of might well think that you have just parked a rolling obstruction in front of them whilst they were waiting patiently in traffic, which they will then have to try and overtake when your speed drops below that of all the other vehicles around them (apart from you).

They won't have this issue with a motorcycle because they can match the speed of the traffic irrespective of gradient or limit.

I don't have issue with this as I have just as much right on the road when cycling as anyone else, but I am aware that if I filter in traffic on a 40mph road, when the traffic is anything less than choc-a-block, the cars who overtook me on the approach which I am filtering between are 10 seconds after the lights turn green going to be trying to pass me again.

 

[Jake]

I try and make a point of looking at the PUSHBIKE image on the green road markings and the motorbike and shaking my head. or pulling right infront of the M'Bike so it has to wait for me. of course it all depends on the situation, like most people on here, if i think its too dangerous to go into the ASL, i hold back in the line of traffic and go with the flow of traffic.

ps, had a good dust up with another specialized allez last night

 

[very-near]

Yes. In line with the rest of traffic, behaving as the rest of traffic. It's the right place to be if you want to reduce the risk that filtering brings. And you should know that. you shouldn't have to ask me.

I don't have a problem with motorbikes or cyclists filtering considerately. But let's not pretend that the added risk that this chosen behaviour brings to the rider is anyone else's fault (car drivers'). That's your backing behind your claim that bikes weaving in and out of cycle/bus lanes is a legitimate safety response. It's not. If you want to maximise your safety, don't filter. If you do filter, do it properly so that you're safer while still legal. A properly filtering biker does not need to use a bus or cycle lane or an ASL.

Riding a motorcycle is risky full stop. Far more risky than walking cycling or car driving whether you play by the rules or not. SMIDSY is not justs part of cycling jargon.

Using the roads is all about risk management, You always run the risk of an accident when there is more than one vehicle in the same space.

I only advocate motorcycles using bus lanes if rights have been granted to do so. The law of undertaking was rescinded years ago, and certainly not applicable in a dual carriageway situation which arises when there is a bus lane on the road.

If it is done in a reckless manner (IE 40mph differential on the inside lane), then Driving without due care or dangerous driving is an option.

Provided the vehicle (be it cycle or motorcycle) doesn't enter a bus lane through a solid line, then no law has been broken provided they indicate to those around them of their intention.

If you were filtering up through busy traffic, and could not get to the near side to enter through the ASL entry lane, would you still enter the ASL anyway because you have a legal right to use it, or would you hold back and take your chances hoping that the cars behind you will be patient enough to let you move to the nearside before they proceed themselves ?

 

[very-near]

The bulk of your post is fine by me, except to say that just because something is risky you shouldn't use that as some strange excuse to increase the risk.

And don't lump motorcyclists and cyclists into the same boat where solid white lines are concerned. Because they're not.



On a bicycle? I'd control the traffic and hold my line until I found a safe opportunity to move left. If I needed to at all. More often than not I'm to the right of hte outside lane, so I'll ride up the outside, because I'm allowed to. If it's not safe to do that I'll stay in the safest place, between the car in front and behind.

ASL entry lanes are very few and far between. It's not mandatory to enter the ASL by it.

Every ASL in Cheltenham has entry lanes. Can you verify this bit about the mandatory entry route ?

 

[very-near]

It's your claim and so it makes sense that you need to verify it.

The fact the ASLs without entry lanes outnumber those with will provide you with the additional difficulty of explaining how cycles are supposed to enter them.

Cheltenham only really has ASLs in the town centre as far as I am aware. They all lead from the cycle lane. This isn't an ASL entry, but a continuation of the cycle lane. Any suggestion that you can only enter an ASL from a cycle lane that isn't mandatory is a bit daft isn't it?

Googleearth for Selly Oak and have a look down the A38. You'll see plenty of ASLs with no continuation from a cycle lane, because there isn't one.

HERE

HERE


HERE

HERE

HERE

You get the picture. If the links don't work cut and paste the edit into your browser.

Anyway

The rule for drivers is fairly straightforward - stay out of them. Although this isn't entirely accurate. If a light turns red and a car has not yet passed the first solid white line before the ASL then yes, he should stay out, but if the light turns red while in the ASL legally the driver has to stop before crossing the second white line at the head of the ASL. Worth bearing in mind next time you're about to berate a driver for encroaching into our space, he might have just got caught there and was actually obeying the letter of the law.

So what of cyclists? Well actually, if there isn't a feeder cycle lane into the ASL then the same rule applies, meaning you cannot actually pass traffic on the left or the right to move into the ASL. Conversely, if there is a feeder lane then you have every right to use it and move into the ASL.

http://www.citycycling.co.uk/issue1/issue1page9.html

The law is an ass

 

[ufkacbln]

It seems that there's been some confusion caused by new rules governing how ASL's are marked now, and that some of what you're saying is correct. According to http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tslegislation/circular022003trafficsigns.pdf if an ASL has a mandatory or advisory cycle lane leading to it, then if the traffic light is red the the cyclist should only enter the ASL via the route to the left. If the traffic light isn't red but the traffic isn't moving then apparently you can join wherever you like. It makes no mention of ASLs with no feeder.

And the legislation it refers to appears to contradict this anyway - http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?ActiveTextDocId=2917882

(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line

I wonder if this is something that the CTC have asked for clarification on. Delzeqq?? you might want to use your 'unignore' button.

I'm off to email our cycling officer in the morning.

I always understood that the access lane was integral to the design. The first line is the stop line and where all vehicles have to stop (solid white line) and only those entitled to use the access lane could therefore get into the box.

I must admit that i have not come across the solid ASL boxes, and would need to check this further....

Another complication is that the first stop line is only obligatory when the vehicle is aproaching the box. If a vehicle has crossed the first line and the lights change they are then required to stop at the seecond, in this case a vehocle is legally entitled to be within the box!

 

[very-near]

Sort your way through this and we might get somewhere (search for 'pedal')-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#43

And 178 here-

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070332

Look at the legislation rather than quoting the first unsubstantiated view on the web that suits your argument.

If you can find the legal weight behind it then I'm happy to stand corrected.

The fact is that there are many such loopholes in the laws because the laws written don't match what is in place on the roads - case in point ASLs without a feeder lane.
This is also the case in parking restrictions. It is absolutely full of flaws and it only takes a tape measure and an understanding of written law to see if the legislation is invalid. This is why people successfully contest the legal system in court.

Is there any record anywhere of someone being prosecuted for an ASL infringement using any vehicle in the UK since their introduction ?

These are ASLs which I use regularly in my town. Every junction being overhauled in the area is having the full works regarding the red paint and feeder lane. The most recent is at the Smiths (GE avionics) lights between Bishops cleeve and the Racecourse, but the cycle lane coming up from the Kingsditch area (hyde lane) is actually on the path next to the road as well as on the road adjacent to it also. Next time you swing through there, take a look at it.